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September 15, 2017, 09:27 AM | #1 |
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Truly Realistic Training
I get advertisements and offers to attend "training" classes on a fairly regular basis. To some degree or another, the description of these classes all involve the trainee moving between fixed stations and shooting at passive stationary targets. Adding movement, the stress of not necessarily knowing where the target is and the pressure of needing to fire rapidly and accurately all aid in preparing the trainee to function in a stressful environment, but they all lack the true stress of having a target that can shoot back.
And before someone goes there, I'm not suggesting live-fire training. What I would like to know is whether there are any classes or systems where the concepts and equipment from paintball and/or laser-tag have been adapted to create a training class in which the targets can (literally, but non-lethally) "shoot back"? |
September 15, 2017, 09:33 AM | #2 |
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Force on force training under a competent training program.
Force on force isn't paintball, it should be scenario and objective based with after action reviews so the students know what they did wrong, and what they did right. |
September 15, 2017, 09:46 AM | #3 |
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Paintball or airsoft wars.
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September 15, 2017, 09:48 AM | #4 |
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Paintball is not realistic as stated. The guns have no relation to real firearms. Modern FOF uses airsoft or simunition type rounds. As stated also, each scenario must be scripted and refereed to avoid some paintball type melee.
Different outfits across the country can offer quality experiences. Someone who offers such should be able to demonstrate credentials in advanced instructor training courses and specifically FOF training. What area are we talking about? Then we can give some hints.
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September 15, 2017, 09:55 AM | #5 |
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September 15, 2017, 10:16 AM | #6 |
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Several places offer realistic force on force training using simunitions, airsoft or paintball. Naturally, I think simunitions provide more realism; but a good scenario script and realistic scenario parameters are much more important IMO.
Having said that, you have to walk before you can run - and even if you can run a firearm really well, many places prefer to see that demonstrated in their own basic level courses before accepting the liability involved in realistic force on force training offered to whoever wanders through the door. After all, there isn't a lot of standardization in the shooting community as regards training standards. |
September 15, 2017, 10:50 AM | #7 |
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I agree, the basics are important before FOF. Otherwise, it becomes paintball!
One hint, I've seen folks who offer instruction. One here is a member of Mas Ayoob's group. Others have taken Givens' instructor courses. They go to the major conferences on training. Another never heard of Givens or any of the other major training figures. Ask for a resume.
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September 15, 2017, 10:53 AM | #8 | |
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September 15, 2017, 12:03 PM | #9 |
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"...guns have no relation to real firearms..." Neither do Airsoft toys.
The issue is realistic training for what? CCW training is not combat training. "...many places prefer to see that..." It's called marketing. Just like the assorted mail order gunsmith schools selling videos, the primary business of the "training" classes places is selling courses. "...a competent training program..." Who determines what that is?
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September 15, 2017, 12:24 PM | #10 |
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Airsoft gun have been used in quite a few FOF exercises and training programs. Paintball guns are less realistic in configuration.
YMMV - but that's my experience with each. You can have 3D live fire with dummy targets of varying realism or living opponents. In the latter case, sims or airsoft are better choice. Of course, you can be negative about trying to come up with decent training but that's unproductive.
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September 15, 2017, 12:33 PM | #11 | ||
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September 15, 2017, 01:33 PM | #12 |
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Also simulation training under stress is common in many critical incident fields - fire, medicine, aviation, military, navigation at sea. Studies demonstrate that it is very useful.
Sure, there can be less than quality but the principle is proven.
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September 16, 2017, 08:32 AM | #13 |
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The way I look at it, its simunitions or nothing.
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September 21, 2017, 11:01 AM | #14 | |
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Laser Tag (and associated simulation setups) and Paintball are non-lethal and everyone participating knows that. The stress of potentially being "killed" at the moment your situational awareness fails - and the associated degradation of performance - is missing. And I'm certainly not a psychopath suggesting people start shooting live ammunition at one another, but rather there needs to be a system that can provide a significant consequence for getting "killed" and I'm not aware of any of those. |
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September 21, 2017, 12:49 PM | #15 | |
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Ask a qualifying airline pilot in a simulator who is attempting to land in turbulence and crosswinds on a mountain runway, perhaps with an unexpected systems failure. No, he or she will not get killed, more will a passenger consist be lost, but the exercise is extremely stress-filled, and failure is terrifying. Just training one-on-one with a nationally known firearms instructor is stressful enough for me. And in the handful of occasions in which I have been faced with the need or near-need to bring out a handgun for serious business, the effect of stress has not manifested itself until after the fact anyway. I do not think that my knowledge that simunitions are most unlikely to kill me even if I should fail would materially reduce either the usefulness of the training nor the stress level. I think the shortcomings of most training programs involve the following:
I think that in FoF training with simunitions, or perhaps in a realistic three-hundred-degree interactive simulator, those shortcomings can and should be eliminated from the scenarios. |
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September 21, 2017, 02:08 PM | #16 |
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The National Tactical Invitational has a segment with role players and sims.
At least one year, somebody made it through the "town" without getting in a fight. |
September 22, 2017, 09:06 PM | #17 |
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Everyone's got to start somewhere.
Try on a few barroom brawls. It'll learn ya something! Paintball is still two things... Trigger time...and IT FRAKKIN HURTS IF YOU GET HIT!! Leading to you using cover and avoiding further hits. It is better than nothing, even if all you learn is use of cover and how to count your shots. Same for MILES gear...training is training is training. You learn from it, develop strategies to avoid taking hits... folks who have had extensive training stateside tend not to go Super Squirrel when the squishy hits the fan in other locations. Blood & guts, however, tend to bring many folks to an instant halt, because they've never seen 'em before, and it melts their little brains. I'd suggest that every person who wants to carry a gun spend some time doing the Firefighting/EMT thing, Hunting, and some time in the morgue, so they don't flip out when a situation goes all pear-shaped. For some reason blood really flips some folks out, add some guts to it and they're Gone to LaLa Land. Folks who are in LaLa Land cannot do much of anything until they've recovered from their own personal shock... if they recover at all, some of 'em go bananas for good. Remember that old opening sequence to "Quincy, ME"? That's a basic truth. Watch the line of cops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI3pd-dNN-0 Everyone talks about the firearms training...nobody talks about the aftereffects of being in a bad situation or how to handle that part.
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September 23, 2017, 10:10 AM | #18 |
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Sims or Airsoft are not without pain. I came back from the NTI covered with bruises from some full auto ambush with them. I was wearing a t-shirt and had to pull the bloody (not a UK curse but the red stuff) shirt off me at the end of the day.
Paintball guns - they hurt but they lack realism of actual carry guns. However, scripting and outcomes that don't always involve shooting are crucial.
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September 23, 2017, 01:32 PM | #19 |
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One problem with most sims/airsoft/paintball training is it teaches you to use concealment as cover. Sims are a definite step up from paintballs. I really appreciated getting shot in the mask when we were using Sims. At typical handgun scenario distances, it will break the skin if you aren't wearing heavy clothing.
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September 23, 2017, 01:53 PM | #20 | |
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September 23, 2017, 01:58 PM | #21 | |||
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If you have a choice between concealment and cover, definitely choose the cover. But if there's no cover, take the concealment--from what I can tell it's likely going to be almost as effective, in practice, as actual cover. Quote:
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September 23, 2017, 05:25 PM | #22 | |
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Deaf
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September 23, 2017, 10:26 PM | #23 | ||
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Do listen to this:
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One step up from simunitions is the UTM round (5.56mm). It's intended as a marking system when shooting targets in a shoothouse that's not rated for live ammo. It claims to be accurate to 75 yards. Far less stoppages and squibs than the simunitions garbage. It also gives better recoil feedback than simunitions, and only requires a bolt change, rather than changing the whole upper receiver - so you don't have to move your optics around. It's not intended for FOF but that never stopped my unit from using them for that very purpose!
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October 6, 2017, 12:49 PM | #24 |
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Truly realistic training?
Having thought about it, I think that truly realistic training would be made up of varying sessions into which the trainees enter without having any inkling at all that he or she may have to draw and fire. That would mirror the real world. Could a practical course of that kind be designed? Dunno. |
October 6, 2017, 02:36 PM | #25 |
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Why not just go into a bikers bar and pick a fight.
Bet you get some 'realistic' training. Folks, there is no such animal as 'Truly Realistic Training'. The only way to exactly simulate the real deal is the real deal. Deaf
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