Leaving magazines loaded, weaken spring tension???

[Walt Sherrill]

If you read the FAQ on the Wolff (Gunspring) site, you get a slightly different story. As the cited article suggests, when you push springs too far, problems can occur. But the Beretta rep quoted didn't address some of the increasingly common events in magazine usage.

This is from the WOLFF FAQ section: http://www.gunsprings.com/faq#Faq5

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

I'm a big CZ fan. I've had a bunch of them. Witnesses, too. And other clones. Back during the mag ban period all you could get were the 10-round mags (unless you were lucky and stumbled on some pre-bans.) The 10-round mags seem to run forever, but the 15 (and now, 16, and 17) round mags seem to do less well. Why? Well, for one thing, the 10 and 15 (and 16) round mags use the same springs... Could it be that the higher capacity mags are pushing springs past their limit?

Rotating mags doesn't save springs -- it just spreads the wear out over more mags over a longer period. Why not just use a couple, and replace the springs more regularly? (Seems like a trade off, actually.)

Until I hear from somebody with good metallurgy credentials, who works with springs, I'll pay more attention to folks at Wolff on this topic than anyone else.

[riggins_83]

Leaving them loaded won't wear them out. I shot a bunch of AR mags (pretty cheap ones too) which had been left fully loaded for about 6 years, fired fine.

[bakon]

Glock mags loaded to top, 15 years, no problems.

[Dave T]

Clips...yes! Magazines...no.

Dave

[madmag]

In the military, I personally used mags that had been loaded more than twenty years with zero problems.

[Kreyzhorse]

Can we put a sticky on this with the title "Leaving Mags Loaded Does Not Effect Spring Tension."

[Tmblweed]

This always worried me a bit while using my 226 loaded for home defense for long periods of time, so I started using a .38 revolver for that purpose.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse

Can we put a sticky on this with the title "Leaving Mags Loaded Does Not Effect Spring Tension."

It's not that simple. It depends on the mag and the mag design. For standard capacity mags it probably won't ever be an issue, but for many high-cap mags it CAN (not WILL) be a potential problem. Check out Wolff Springs (www.gunsprings.com) FAQ area and see what they say.

This has been discussed many times over the years here on TFL -- with input from people who work with metal applications (like Metallurgists), and a couple of engineers and technicians in the aerospace industry.

The experts say that spring life CAN be shortened when a spring is compressed (or stretched) to (or beyond) it's design limits. Many mags, when fully loaded are NOT pushed to that limit -- but others might be. Down loading a round or two for long-term storage is recommended by Wolff Springs, but they say just keep carry mags fully loaded, and check them from time to time at the range.

Just working a spring won't damage it much, even with high round counts, like seen with auto valve springs (which may cycle millions of times over the car engine's lifetime) -- unless they pushed too far when compressed (or in other applications, when stretched).

A staff member here, also an engineer, and familiar with both handguns and air guns (many of which use springs), has done tests using recoil springs and has test results that confirm these assertions. Here's a link to his tests -- springs weakened even though they weren't worked (i.e., cycled) -- just kept compressed: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...gazine+springs Read through this link -- it's well worth the time required.

[Bill DeShivs]

Walt can't seem to leave this alone.
As a rule, leaving magazines loaded does not hurt them at all.
If it does, there is a design flaw somewhere. Springs should not be stressed to their design limit.

[Ibmikey]

Ok here ya go with the WWI magazine story....shortened considerably....I was given a 1911 that was loaded and not been out of the holster ( embossed on the face MG Company 131st infantry) I think that was the regiment number as I stupidly gave the holster to a friend. The holster, pistol (made in 1913) belt and mag carrier were included. The pistol took a week to get out of the holster and was pitted badly on the exterior. I removed the loaded magazine as well as the two in the pouch...this was about 1995. I fired the three magazines in the pitted 1911 some 70+ years after being loaded. The pistol was blasted and given a parkerized finish I later traded everything except one lanyard loop mag. I still shoot that mag in my 90% 1911 made in 1917 and the mag functions properly.

[JohnKSa]

Leaving Mags Loaded Does Not Effect Spring Tension.

It definitely affects spring tension. At least it has in every magazine I've tested.

THAT SAID, so far I haven't tested one that the spring tension was weakened enough to affect function.

I recently took a mag from my first test (it ran for 4 years and the mag was fully loaded for that entire period) to the range and it worked fine and locked back the slide on empty. But the measurements clearly showed that the spring was shorter and weaker at the end of the test than it had been at the start.

I've been running another test for about 3 years and the intermediate results show that the springs in all mags left loaded have both shortened and weakened but since the results so far seem to be pretty similar to the first test, I suspect that the shortening/weakening won't be enough to affect function.

The second test is being run on several mags to compare the effects of their being left fully loaded, partially loaded, and left empty but cycled. So far, being left fully loaded has resulted in the most weakening and the most shortening.

Here's another test that compares leaving mags loaded vs. using them at the range. The tester doesn't measure the spring strength but compares them only by how much their length has changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVC-83QW5L4

Here's another example of comparison between mag springs between mags left loaded vs. unloaded. Again, only spring length is compared. This particular tester did note that function was affected.

https://youtu.be/vsiv_5YZTYI

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Walt can't seem to leave this alone.

You have the same sort of problem, Bill, except you never offer any evidence to back up your claims or assertions. Except to tell us you make springs for knives and have owned a lot of guns. (That's called "arguing from authority" and it's considered bad form in this sort of discussion.)

If you'd read what I wrote you'd see that I basically said that most mags springs will likely never be an issue if left loaded. But I made a point of NOT making a broad generalization that applied to all mag (or recoil) springs -- as I know there are exceptions.

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

"As a rule, leaving magazines loaded does not hurt them at all. If it does, there is a design flaw somewhere. Springs should not be stressed to their design limit."

If all gun designers wanted the mag or recoil springs in their guns to last forever, and if spring longevity was a universal design goal, you'd be right. But that obviously isn't the case. Sometimes the designers have to use less metal in a smaller space to make a gun do what it's intended to do. And in those cases, springs become a renewable resource. By design. (That was the case with the Rohrbaugh R9, probably the smallest 9mm semi-auto in production at the time, with a recoil spring that had a recommended service life of 250 rounds.) I think Remington bought out Rohrbaugh -- so we'll probably see that design again.

You read JohnKSa's test results some time ago, and at the time you seemed to suggest that the springs in question must have been poor quality. I think JohnKSa addressed that point pretty directly at the time.

Others here should read that link if they haven't already done so.

[sigarms228]

I am in the camp that it certainly could, especially for double stack magazines.

For myself I will make sure that any magazines I use for SD purposes will have the magazine springs changed at least every five years. That will cost me a few bucks a year which I consider cheap insurance.

People often complain that HK pistols are large for their capacity compared to the competition. HK's reason is they do it to make the magazines more reliable and durable and they design and sell a lot of pistols for military contracts. Even so I read where an engineer from HK still recommends changing magazine springs every five years for magazines kept loaded to capacity all the time.

[Bill DeShivs]

I was wondering when the Rorhbaugh was going to come up....

Sigarms- what if you replace your good springs with bad ones?

[sigarms228]

Sigarms- what if you replace your good springs with bad ones?

Much much more likely that I would be replacing somewhat worn ones with perfectly fine new ones. I also test any magazines at range after I replace spring and periodically.

[drbill]

For what its worth this Summer I fired four 20rd magazines that I loaded in 1982 and all cartridges fed and fired. I used an Armalite AR15NM and shot slow fire.

[OldScout]

I have have a couple "mag loaders", which are generally hard to load when new, but they get easier the more they are used. Never a problem with extended loaded gun mags. But I do rotate mags if they have been left loaded (and not used) for a year. But that is just a personal choice. Why temp fate?

[T. O'Heir]

"...definitely affects spring tension..." No it doesn't. Springs do not lose temper from being compressed.
And the OP is 10 years old.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...definitely affects spring tension..." No it doesn't. Springs do not lose temper from being compressed. And the OP is 10 years old.

While the original post was from 10 years ago, JohnKSa posted an update and links just a day or two ago. He mentioned newer test results and more recent information including links to YouTube. Just because some information is OLD doesn't make it wrong...

Can you offer any test data, technical references, or other evidence to tell us that "Springs do not lose temper from being compressed."

How do you explain away JohnKSa's test results (which include tests that are ongoing), or the contents of the YouTube links he provided above -- one of which describes mags that no longer hold the slide open?

Must they all be wrong while your assertion -- which is offered without evidence -- is right?

[Bill DeShivs]

Springs take a "set" after they are heat treated. The further they are compressed, the greater this "set" is. Once the "set" is in, they usually don't shorten or lose power. If they are compressed to the point of their elastic limit, they deform further, and damage is done.

I'm speaking in practical terms, not lab results.

We all have seen very old springs that work just fine. Even revolver springs are under some tension at rest, and they don't seem to get weaker, do they?

I have M1 carbine mags that have been loaded for 30 years, pistol mags that have been loaded for 40 years. Keltec and S&W hi cap mags that have been loaded for 20 years. They all work just fine. I have had one S&W mag spring fail, and it failed completely-improperly made.

My take is that any springs that get weak are the exception to the rule, and are either improperly made, or not used as designed. And if your gun being fully loaded causes magazines to fail, I would say the design is faulty. Rohrbaugh be damned.

And again, I make springs for antique switchblade knives. I have made thousands of them. None have ever gotten weaker, and they are under much greater stress than almost any gun spring.

[JohnKSa]

We all have seen very old springs that work just fine.

Sure. And I've seen some old ones that don't work any more--and even some new ones.

Even revolver springs are under some tension at rest, and they don't seem to get weaker, do they?

I've never seen anyone measure their strength to see how they do over time, but I wouldn't expect to see much weakening since being under "some tension" seems to be significantly different than being under maximum tension based on my test results.

I have made thousands of them. None have ever gotten weaker...

In all fairness, you have no idea at all if any of them "have ever gotten weaker". At best, you know that none of them has ever failed to function.

Springs take a "set" after they are heat treated. The further they are compressed, the greater this "set" is. Once the "set" is in, they usually don't shorten or lose power.

I've heard this before, but it is not consistent with the results of my testing, nor with the results from the two videos I posted.

All of those magazine springs were compressed the same amount (fully loaded) but the ones left loaded for long periods definitely shortened a lot more than the ones that were only loaded for range use (cycled). Clearly there is more to it than just taking a set and then never shortening further after that. If that were the case, all of the mags would have springs the same length since they were all compressed to the same level at least once and therefore should have taken the same set if your assertion was correct.

For the record, I'm not saying that all magazine springs are going to fail if left loaded. So far my testing suggests that would be the exception rather than the rule. I do think that people should be aware that magazine springs can weaken when left loaded and that in some cases can weaken enough to cause function issues.

I don't recommend replacing magazine springs on a regular basis as a preventive measure unless previous issues have been noted, but I would recommend that people who do leave magazines loaded for long periods should check them for function periodically.

[dahermit]

Springs do not lose temper from being compressed.

An inappropriate word for the subject being posted about. In regard to "heat treating" (the broad term), there is a three-step process...hardening (heating and then quenching), drawing (A.K.A, "tempering", by re-heating the item to a lower temperature) and then quenching again.

The subject of the post is whether or not a magazine spring will take a set over time. The only way a spring will lose its "temper" is with the application of heat...nothing to do with taking a set.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by dahermit

The subject of the post is whether or not a magazine spring will take a set over time. The only way a spring will lose its "temper" is with the application of heat...nothing to do with taking a set.

The subject wasn't whether springs would lose "temper" or take a set, but whether springs can degrade with use and eventually lose their ability to function as intended. New coil springs will always take a set when first put to work -- you can see this with both recoil springs and magazine springs. That's normal spring behavior, and it's understood and taken into consideration by the folks who specify the springs used in a given gun design.

We've had this discussion here on The Firing Line a number of times, and folks who haven't taken part in those earlier discussions (and a few others, like Bill DeShivs, ) continue to claim that only inferior springs fail; they also seem to believe that all springs are designed with the same objectives and are all intended to have long functional lives -- regardless of how the spring or the gun is intended to be used.

Engineers involved in this discussion in the past -- at least one of whom was a metallurgist -- tell us that while steel is surprisingly resilient (and flexible), it will degrade if it's pushed, stretched, or bent too far.

These experts also reminded us that this behavior is seen in almost all materials -- wood, steel, aluminum, glass, rubber, nylon, etc. That's why buildings fail, bridges fall, airplane wings break off, ropes fail, rubber bands break, and mirrors or windows crack. (Aluminum, for example, doesn't bend well -- it typically breaks very easily -- and that's why there are few aluminum springs.)

In the case of recoil and magazine springs -- both types of coil springs -- the degradation takes the form of small fractures in the metal where it flexes. As the work continues and more metal fractures, the remaining (sound) steel is forced to take over the work being done and the failures cascade. I don't think the degraded metal has lost it's "temper" -- it has just been broken by "over"-use (i.e., lost its structural integrity.) These springs get soft because some of the metal in the spring is no longer resisting when pushed or stretched. This sort of degradation doesn't happen UNTIL the spring is pushed to or beyond it's design limits (also called its elastic limit).

Some designs (like 7-round 1911 mags) never push springs that far. Some very small guns, like the Rohrbaugh R9 recoil spring mentioned earlier, do. But many gun owners want extra capacity or a smaller gun size and don't mind having to replace springs more frequently.

When used as intended, many (perhaps most) springs may never degrade enough to cause a malfunction. But when degradation does happen the gun will start to "act up": a recoil spring that doesn't store enough force to close the slide, a magazine spring that may not lock the slide back, or when rounds in the mag nose dive and not freed properly.

[Bill DeShivs]

John- Exactly-your springs were held at maximum tension, at or above their elastic limit.
And yes, I would know if any of my springs has degraded. The auto knife collector community is a relatively small one and I am in contact with many of my customers.

I also think that most of us are actually in agreement, but that our understandings of terminology make it look like we aren't. That- and Walt just likes to argue with me.

[tallball]

IMHO, that was a pre-Internet argument against semiautomatic pistols back when almost everyone used revolvers and wanted an argument to keep using revolvers.

Nowadays, as we can see in this thread, people are actually doing experiments, quoting metallurgists, contacting spring manufacturers, etc. Some of us older folk probably have "information" from old-timey gun periodical writers stuck in our heads.

I know I do. I still unload magazines whenever they're not in use, and still have an irrational affection for such SD weapons as revolvers and coach guns with external hammers.