Hawkeye borescope

[stagpanther]

Increasingly I'm working on other people's used rifles, and I've gotten a bit weary of doing a complete strip and clean and check of all parts when trying to optimize their accuracy when the problem may have been with the barrel to begin with. I've been meaning to get a good borecam for some time, and while I came close to getting the Lyman which is also quite affordable, I decided to go the "no regrets" route and spring for the 17" slim Hawkeye set.

I've seen videos of the thing set up on a Luxxor video system track--but since that looks about another $2500 I decided that was way too much.

Any advice on a stable mount system to do the actual bore examination?

I've also seen references to a usb cable to hook up to a PC in order to record pics/videos--but can't find any such thing for sale on gradient lens site. Any ideas where I can find one (if it exists)?

thanks in advance.

[stagpanther]

Well, guess they are not that popular judging by the paucity of comments. Mine came in today and I ran it through a few barrels--including some brand new ones, what an eye-opener/horror show! First thing that became obvious was barrels that have expert bore polishing and ones that don't, that micro tool chatter is going to get you sooner or later! Customer gave me a rifle that I had trouble getting to shoot well and I suspected the bore might be to blame--the cam revealed both throat erosion and some real nasty heat-cracking. Problem is he just bought it--so I suspect I'm going to get in the middle of a money fight whether I want to or not.

[Nathan]

https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Bores...g%2C153&sr=1-3

I use the wifi version of this. The images are quite clear.













Can you show me throat erosion and cracking?

[stagpanther]

Can you show me throat erosion and cracking?

Those pictures are exceptional--especially at that price--my set-up is nearly 20 times as expensive! On top of that, I can't figure out good way to get pictures off of it--Hawkeye's camera to interface with a computer costs around $2,500!!

I'll try to describe them instead (or at least what I think they are) on a customer's barrel. Keep in mind it's the first time I've used it.

In the throat immediately forward of the case mouth there are "burn grooves" running forward (parallel to the bore) on a customer's gun I looked at. Might be the result of over-aggressive cleaning--but I didn't see it in any of my personal barrels. What I think are heat cracks are pretty obvious--not the classic "alligator skin" cracking through the whole bore--but instead some large isolated fissures; sorta like cracks after an earthquake.

I'm going to keep looking around to see if there is a cheaper solution to the track and video system they offer which will set one back around $3.5 K or so near as I can figure. That is the MAJOR drawback of this system IMO--at it's expensive price point it really should come with a picture/video grab option. at little extra cost.

[Nathan]

Gotcha.

Any idea why the bottom image has those weird shapes that look like a chunk of slag? It is a PSA AR15 barrel that is chrome lined.

BTW, the one above it is an 80’s Win 70 bore.

Above that are 3 pics from my Rock Creek barrel.

BTW, if I’m careful setting up, I can take more focused pictures. It is all in how far the mirror is from the lens.

[stagpanther]

Gotcha.

Any idea why the bottom image has those weird shapes that look like a chunk of slag? It is a PSA AR15 barrel that is chrome lined.

BTW, the one above it is an 80’s Win 70 bore.

Above that are 3 pics from my Rock Creek barrel.

BTW, if I’m careful setting up, I can take more focused pictures. It is all in how far the mirror is from the lens.

Well, considering I've spent all of 3 hours looking down my borescope I would hardly qualify my observations as "authoritative"--but I'll offer my guesstimates anyway.

That Rock Creek barrel looks to me very well done, actually, nice smooth bore, I assume the first shot is a bit of copper trapped in the rifling after you fired a few shots through it. Your PSA barrel seems to me has had the chrome lining either burned off or removed by some other abrasive action--could be some kind of oxidation chemical reaction? As I look at it more (hard to tell without a blow-up) it looks almost as if the chrome lining is being "attacked" from underneath--almost like a plume creeping into the lining from fissures in the chromoly underneath.

[zplinker]

I've had the Hawkeye for a long time, and one thing is certain, that you will find more stuff that disappoints you, than not! First thing I do with a new barrel blank, is clean it, then look it over; I can't tell you how many times I've returned new blanks, due to flaws, and these are match grade stainless steel barrels from the ''good'' names. They have never complained about the returns either.

[stagpanther]

I've had the Hawkeye for a long time, and one thing is certain, that you will find more stuff that disappoints you, than not! First thing I do with a new barrel blank, is clean it, then look it over; I can't tell you how many times I've returned new blanks, due to flaws, and these are match grade stainless steel barrels from the ''good'' names. They have never complained about the returns either.

Spot on--what amazes me is the barrel manufacturers who obviously take the next step to polish their bores--and the ones (most) that don't. That lack of polishing I suspect gives your lands and grooves "teeth" to start fouling early on--as well, I suspect, to give heat cracking a head start. I compared my customer's vintage vanguard to one I bought brand new last year, a 300 wby mag, and I just did an examination of the barrel which has maybe a couple hundred bullets down the bore. I was shocked to see that my barrel was almost as bad as the used vanguard (which I dated having been made sometime between 1984 and 1994).

I'm going to inventory all my barrels with an inspection, that's going to take a very long time I suspect--and will likely drain my supply of patches and cleaning fluids.

I just took a look at 2 AR builds that have many hundreds of bullets down their bores; one is a 6mm creedmoor by Odin and the other is a 6.5 creedmoor by Criterion. Both are SS and both have well-polished lands and grooves. They look pristine upon examination with the borecam.

[Nathan]

I'm going to inventory all my barrels with an inspection, that's going to take a very long time I suspect--and will likely drain my supply of patches and cleaning fluids.

What will surprise you is how good shooting rifles looks so bad. Unless shot out or truely pitted, I’m not sure what you will see. Mine were more or less as expected. I’m surprised the reamer marks don’t really seem to hurt accuracy, if 1 moa is reasonable.

[stagpanther]

Took a look at a pile of spare barrels--including an unfired one from savage.

I've made an appointment with my depression therapist next week.

[stagpanther]

I got my first look down my new model 70 270 WSM, the lands and grooves are much nicer than I expected--until I got about 3" from the muzzle where I discovered much to my shock--and disappointment--a significant gouge which spirals symmetrically around the entire inner diameter of the bore. Since I've already put about 100 cartridges through it--mostly handloads--I suspect I'll have little to no chance getting that worked out.

[stagpanther]

I've had the Hawkeye for a long time, and one thing is certain, that you will find more stuff that disappoints you, than not! First thing I do with a new barrel blank, is clean it, then look it over; I can't tell you how many times I've returned new blanks, due to flaws, and these are match grade stainless steel barrels from the ''good'' names. They have never complained about the returns either.

That's what I'm going to do from now on--for sure. Without having a borescope to examine the bore--and you actually fire something through the barrel--then it's going to be tough to argue as to who's bad it really is.

[stagpanther]

Explored some more barrels--it's actually a fascinating activity, sorta like tracking. My Wilson Combat 338 fed barrel is another immaculate barrel on par with what I saw with Odin and Criterion--and it has well over 500 bullets down the bore. My EA Brown barrels--of which I have quite a few, are about the same as my Shaw barrels--no surprise there since they are made by Shaw AFAIK. They are very similar in bore finishing to Savage barrels. But the biggest surprise was my Rossi 92 lever guns, the bore finishing is quite good, some chatter like the production savages and Shaws, but not as pronounced. They also have what appears to be a slight sloping wall into their grooves. All I know is once I fix the rest of the gun, which tends to be rather poorly made in my experience, they shoot pistol cartridges exceptionally well.

[Nathan]

I got my first look down my new model 70 270 WSM, the lands and grooves are much nicer than I expected--until I got about 3" from the muzzle where I discovered much to my shock--and disappointment--a significant gouge which spirals symmetrically around the entire inner diameter of the bore.

Remember, the real question is how does it shoot....so, how does it shoot?

[zplinker]

I wasn't going to mention brand names, but since Savage has come up, I will say that they have to be about the worst looking barrels I've ever seen, yet many shoot fairly well. One, a customer swore, had no rifling out in the middle; upon examination, that was the ONLY spot where the rifling was somewhat normal. The rest of the barrel was just trash, and the normal spot made it feel like a smoothbore. Pretty scary stuff, for the money we pay.

[stagpanther]

Remember, the real question is how does it shoot....so, how does it shoot?

The very first 4 shots were fine--never have even come close since then.

[stagpanther]

I wasn't going to mention brand names, but since Savage has come up, I will say that they have to be about the worst looking barrels I've ever seen, yet many shoot fairly well.

Their barrels and Shaws look pretty similar on the inside--if you showed me borecam shots of them both I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Vanguard (aka howa 1500) also has a similar "tool chatter" up and down the bore--I guess the reason it "works" is because if it's uniform through the whole bore--then maybe it will shoot just fine.

[stagpanther]

Just cleaned and did a much more careful examination of the model 70's bore--the first 7" from the chamber looks great--but it gets rougher pretty quickly--as does the fouling. Starting from the muzzle I noticed that the spiral gouge actually goes for many revolutions--from about the muzzle to 12" down the bore.

I'm guessing the barrel is toast.

[stagpanther]

What will surprise you is how good shooting rifles looks so bad.

I'm starting to develop a theory about that--pure guess and I'm probably off my rocker--but I wonder if the chatter is purposely left in the bore to extend the life cycle of the barrel? In other words it's left there with the intention that eventually it will be polished by the projectiles down to where the bore is smoother "in it's prime?"

Got a look at my ruger Hawkeye barrel--it looks nice and smooth with a "line of chatter" every few centimeters or so--still looks much cleaner than my savages, vanguards or Shaws. Also took a look at my "big thumper" mossberg patriot in 375 ruger--the bore machining looks very nicely done with barely discernible chatter.

[stagpanther]

Just examined a couple of my McGowen barrels--spectacular!

[Unclenick]

Stagpanther,

I thought I had posted earlier, but must have got called away and never clicked "Post".

Do a search on "smartphone eyepiece adapter" and you will get a lot of hits on simple to complex fixtures that center your cellphone camera lens in an eyepiece so you can use it for photos.

[stagpanther]

Thanks for that--I'll give that a try. : )

[Scorch]

I opted for a Lyman due to the price. As a gunsmith, the bore scope spends the majority of its life under the bench. I can see letting a $250 piece sit under the bench, but a $2500 piece of equipment would really bother me. I am pleased with the results and have impressed a few customers with pictures of the inside of their rifles bores.

Took a look at a pile of spare barrels--including an unfired one from savage.
I've made an appointment with my depression therapist next week

Yeah, I think it says somewhere in the instructions not to look at Savage barrels. They are rough. Shoot good, but foul quickly. Not that it bothers Savage owners much: out of sight, out of mind.

[stagpanther]

Whole new world seeing what's going on in the bore--and how fast it goes to poop in certain makes.

[Unclenick]

It makes it a lot easier to appreciate why some more aggressive treatments like firelapping have evolved.