Ammo Question about old Stevens 12 gauge side-by-side

[musicmatty]

This gun is believed to be from the 1950s. The barrel simply says ...proof steel/Stevens and two and 2 3/4 inch shells. There’s no model number anywhere.

My question is this, I have no idea what’s considered old school versus modern preasure type ammo... is it recommended to shoot nothing greater than 1200 ft./s shot shells out of this old gun?

Thanks~

[Blindstitch]

Probably something like a Stevens 311. Closer pictures would help. https://www.leeroysramblings.com/sav...20_double.html

[NoSecondBest]

I’m thinking Model 311 also. I owned a few of them in 12, 20 and 410. You can shoot any modern shotgun shell out of this gun. Just make sure you’re not shooting 3” if the gun is marked for only 2 3/4”. My 20, and 410 were marked for both lengths. They’re not a top of the line shotgun, but they worked well enough and were made in the millions under different names.

[reinert]

If it were my gun, I wouldn't use steel shot shells in it, either.

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by reinert

If it were my gun, I wouldn't use steel shot shells in it, either.

Yes! There was no steel shot in the fifties.

[jmr40]

Steel is not a good idea. Although it might be OK through an IC cylinder I wouldn't risk it. But any other 2 3/4" shell should be OK.

If you have one with damascus steel barrels it shouldn't be fired with any shell. Those were last produced in the very early 1900's although some remained in common use into the 1920's or even later in some cases.

Damascus was made with black powder in mind but they were still used during the transition to smokeless powder.

Those Stevens guns were budget guns even back in their day. The internal parts just don't hold up to a lot of use. Most hunters at the time were 1-2 boxes of ammo per year shooters. At that rate most of them would still last a lifetime for the average shooter.

With a 50-70 year old gun it may be near the end of it's expected life depending on how much it has been used. But shooting modern shells through it won't hurt it.

[HiBC]

My first gun was a Stevens 530 A single trigger SxS 20 ga. It was made in Chicopee Falls,Mass in the 1930's.

So,that one would be near 90 years old. I was a kid,then into high school when I owned it.To me it was a great shotgun.
If I had it now,I'd use target to field loads in it. In my youth,I used to to hunt Canada Geese.I'd use 2 3/4 Magnum #2's. I'd shoot when I could clearly see their feet.
We had a lot of stubble fields and irrigation features ,from ditches to low crawl to reservoirs for pass shooting. I did just fine with that 20 ga.

As a kid,I was not too smart about dry firing a double without snap caps.TThe firing pin holes in the breech suffered.

[44 AMP]

Budget grade (or just above) made in the 50s, assuming the gun is in sound mechanical condition will be safe to shoot with any modern ammo in the correct chambering (2 3/4') Shotgun ammo pressures have not significantly changed.

Shot SHELLS have gotten more efficient, the 50s saw the introduction of the plastic shot cup wad system, which meant tighter patterns.

Shot shells don't do well above 1200-1300 fps, patterns suffer. Slugs can go faster.

DO NOT SHOOT STEEL SHOT ammo in that gun!

Steel shot does not compress (squeeze down) to pass through a choke the way lead shot does. This results in excessive pressure at the choke and has damaged barrels, even split them. Not saying it WILL happen, only that it could..so avoid steel shot in that gun.

Older shotguns made before the advent of shot cups in shells generally have chokes that are "tighter" than more modern ones. Choke was determined by the percentage of pellets inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yds. The old card wad shells without shot cups always had some pellets in contact with the barrel on their way out, which flattened one side so they didn't fly "true". Old chokes were tighter (smaller diameter) than current ones to account for the percentage of pellets that were going to go "off: from the shot column in flight. Those chokes absolutely should never have steel shot put through them.

Personally, I'd be fine with that gun, shooting 3, 3 1/4, or 3 3/4 dr eq loads. I would avoid regular use of "baby magnum" 2 3/4" shells, simply to avoid extra stress.

[stinkeypete]

That's a nice enough double gun, I would take care of it.

Nothing wrong with the "old" 1200 fps game loads, I took plenty of pheasants this year with them.

I switched to the 1400 fps shells and.. they kick harder and pattern WORSE. All that's new isn't better.

I am interested in what 44Amp wrote about choke diameters. My full choke Ithaca (1945) seems to pattern about the same as my No.5 (modified) Fabarms choke. That really surprised me. Shells were Herters no. 5 game load (1200fps) Choke is like black magic, there are lots of variables. It makes me curious to do more patterning.

[musicmatty]

Just to be clear....There is no choke in either bores...they are both smoothbores.

[Blindstitch]

You mean there are no removable chokes. Unless it's been sawed off or bored out it has a choke. You can use a pair of calipers to measure the inside of the barrel. The right one is probably more open than the left one if I remember right.

[musicmatty]

You mean there are no removable chokes.

There are no removable chokes.

[44 AMP]

As I said earlier, the degree of choke was determined by the percentage of shot within a 30 inch circle at 40 yards. I don't remember the numbers for other chokes but for full choke it was 70%.

and, it was done in the days before shot cups. A barrel that patterned more than 70% might be left as "full choke" or it might be honed until it did 70%. Likewise something less than 70% was not a full choke, and might be honed until the pattern was approximately the next lowest choke number, and such a gun was "modified"...

And yes it made a difference what ammo was used for the initial testing.

what my Grandfather taught me (and I have his Ithaca double which he bought in 1909, was that the test for a full choke gun (12ga) was that a dime would balance on the muzzle. It would NOT fall through.

His gun was choked full/full per his order and the stock made to his order as well. And yes a dime will not go through the muzzle.

Compare that with any 12 ga "full choke" barrel made after the 1950s, a dime will fall right through.

Again, this is because the amount of constriction of the bore (the choke) was what was needed to produce the required pattern percentage. With the advent of the modern shot cup, the AMMO patterned tighter, so the gun bore's could be 'looser" (larger inside diameter) and still produce the right pattern percentage on the target board.

The full choke guns made for the old type shells without shot cups actually pattern "X-tra full" or "super full" using modern ammunition.

Which is why it is vitally important to NEVER shoot steel shot ammo through those guns.

[musicmatty]

Which is why it is vitally important to NEVER shoot steel shot ammo through those guns.

10-4 Thanks for all that knowledge as I truly appreciate it! I have no idea what those barrels are choked at if indeed they are choked. I had assumed that both barrels were just cylinder bore. It’s my nephews gun and he has shot target loads and buckshot through it and it’s done very well thus far.

After about a dozen shots or so the forend starts to loosen up from the wood screws that hold it down inside which is truly a poor design. I added some wood filler to the screw holes to tighten them up for a more snug fit and also added some blue Loctite ..hopefully will do the trick.

[bamaranger]

Interesting old shotgun. Noticed the medallion on the butt stock, care to mention what it states, or better yet, a pic?

There's a website, Leroy's Ramblings, which discuss the old Savage-Stevens doubles in a bit of detail, including markings/stampings. Check on the receiver flats (water tables?) of your gun for stampings which might aid in dating it. These are not particularly discernable.

[Jim Watson]

The barrel length of the OP's gun is an indicator of choke.
Most mass produced doubles were usually choked improved cylinder and modified in 26" barrels. Full and modified if 28" or 30".

Different combinations were special order in higher end guns.

We speak of choke by the percentage of shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards; Full = 70%, etc.
But that is a nominal value, patterning and honing to get an actual desired shot spread was major custom work when that gun was made. What you got was about .040" constriction for full. In the European terminology, modified is "half choke" with .020 constriction. Conveniently for them, 1 millimeter and 1/2 millimeter, respectively.

Of course now all you need is a sack of screw in choke tubes and the patience to test them to see if they shoot your shells well.

[stuckinthe60s]

shoot it. itll handle modern ammo. enjoy it.
be ready for some kick.
those model guns did.

[bladesmith 1]

" If you have one with damascus steel barrels it shouldn't be fired with any shell " - really ? I just can't believe how that old wives tale is still around. The 10 or so Damascus guns I own haven't noticed if I shoot BP or nitro in them. Been doing it for around 15 years and 95% of the time with nitro. So have my friends. I throw a SxS shoot every year since 2005 and about half the guys showing up are shooting Damascus barreled guns. Damascus barreled guns were made well into the smokeless powder era. The British have always, even today, proof test Damascus barrel guns. There were many reasons Damascus guns got a bad rap here in the States that I won't go into, but they are not unsafe to shoot. They should be checked for barrel thickness and check to see the chambers haven't been opened up. Your Stevens would be safe for any 2 3/4" ammo today. If you're thinking about steel shot, check the bores with a inside dial indicator to compare the bore to the muzzle. If it's under .010 you're good to go.

[Grant 14]

If you are going to hunt any place that requires "non toxic" ammo, pay the big bucks and buy Bismith ammo that wont hurt your barrels. That is better than wondering if steel is OK or not. Many years ago I hunted pheasant with a 311 side by side in 20 gauge. Nice old gun. Grant.

[NoSecondBest]

My 12ga was gifted to me from my grandfather. I remember him showing me that a dime wouldn’t fit in the end of one barrel but would fit into the other. He bought that gun new and it was Mod and Full. Not very scientific or technical, but it worked as he described.

[bladesmith 1]

You're fright, and those gauges that go in the muzzle also work IF the gun has what are considered proper diameter bores. The newer guns are often back bored or someone could have done quite a bit of honing and increased the bore diameter. Then those gauges don't work because the choke is the difference between the muzzle and the bore. A friend just bought a used Charles Daley O/U and was told it had IC and Mod. I checked it for him - Mod and Full.

[FITASC]

With a 50-70 year old gun it may be near the end of it's expected life depending on how much it has been used, abused....or neglected

Fixed it.

[44 AMP]

The 10 or so Damascus guns I own haven't noticed if I shoot BP or nitro in them. Been doing it for around 15 years and 95% of the time with nitro.

Congratulations, you haven't had a problem...YET...
You may never have a problem, I hope you don't.

Or you might have a barrel let go the very next time you pull the trigger. there's no way to know, and that's the problem.

"True" Damascus barrels used 6 or 8 straps, wound around a mandrel and hammer welded into a barrel. Twist (or Stub Twist) barrels were made the same way, but used only 2 or 4 straps.

Damascus barrels were made during the early part of the smokeless era, for a couple reasons, first, was that they had been, and still were in demand by the comsumers, Damascus barrels were seen as a sign of high quality, and kept that reputation for some time, despite the superiority of "fluid steel" or "Nickel Steel" barrels. Over time, that changed, Damascus production ended (in the US at least) leaving the modern solid barrel the dominant type.

Second reason, was simply that even after smokeless "took over", a lot of people still used black powder reloading their shells. Over time, the "bulk" smokeless powders (such as DuPont's PB) replaced black, and then eventually more modern smokeless became the standard.

My Grandfather had a "stub twist" Ithace he was very fond of. Soo was one of his neighbors, who badgered him for about a decade before Grandpa gave in and sold him the gun. The gun my Grandfather replaced that gun with is the one I currently have, which he bought new in 1909. It has "fluid steel" barrels.

His old stub twist gun gave good service for several more decades, then 8 inches of the left barrel unraveled in the 1940s. Might have been smokeless ammo, we don't know, and of course no way to know, now.

Point here is that Damascus barrel guns are a potential problem, there's no way to tell if there is rust or bad welds in the voids produced by the hammer welding method that weakens them, until the barrel lets go. IF it does.

In some ways its like the "low number Springfields" that "shouldn't be shot" today. People have been and probably still are shooting some of them with no problems. Others have had catastrophic failures.

Since it is possible (but not a given) people advise not to shoot them at all.

[NoSecondBest]

Take the forearm off the gun and there should be a few places on the receiver with numbers/markings. There probably is on the forearm metal also. You can track down the manufacture date and model with those numbers if you go to Shotgunworld.com and use their database and/or ask for help there. I did that with one of my guns, the .410 that I had.

[musicmatty]

Thanks everyone for your feedback I greatly appreciate it! My nephew just uses the shotgun for target shooting and some sporting clays in the yard with target loads.

Thanks again everyone, Merry Christmas and happy new year!