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October 12, 2010, 08:14 AM | #26 | |
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October 12, 2010, 08:23 AM | #27 |
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The wording of the story begs the question, where was the girl when the shooting started? He didn't see her until he approached the BG and then scanned around behind him. If the BG was 20-25 yards away to start, it sounds as if she may have been somewhere between them to start. Not a good time to announce yourself and draw fire...
The locked fire door also sounds like a big red flag. |
October 12, 2010, 08:25 AM | #28 |
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I have a concealed pistol license but I think I'll keep carrying my little j frame .38 special if it's all the same to you
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October 12, 2010, 08:42 AM | #29 | |
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October 12, 2010, 08:52 AM | #30 |
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I think it does illustrate that if you are well trained with a firearm and trained to shoot until the threat goes away, you can put out a lot of ammunition in a very short time.
Let's say we have a scenario like this where your first round is effective; but it takes about two seconds for you to notice that threat has stopped. Using a single sight picture, my splits are about 0.2 seconds. Reacquiring the sights after every shot slows me down to about 0.5 seconds. That would mean anywhere from 4-10 shots fired in that scenario, even though only one is necessary. If I am carrying a J-frame, I am either dry or have one round left. If I am carrying a G26, I am either dry or halfway through my magazine. Either way, if another threat shows up, I am in a bad place. I think this phenomenon is something to keep in mind because the people it effects the worst are going to be the people who train the most. I also think that is something that all of us need to consider in our training. The human body can take a lot of abuse. People have remained functional for as long as 13 seconds with their heart destroyed. If you are going to train to keep shooting until you hit slidelock or until the threat goes away, then you need to adjust your ammo load accordingly. |
October 12, 2010, 09:19 AM | #31 | |
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One thing that I have considered is the difference in reaction time between a trained LEO, a criminal or a law abiding citizen with a ccw. Of course there will be individual differences but the LEO or the criminal is less likely to hesitate. I was in a SD situation many years ago and the ramifications of what I was doing were running through my mind while the scenario was unfolding. I don't think the average perpetrator agonizes over the possible consequences of his actions. As far as the LEO in this situation, I guess he was trained to protect and defend rather than retreat. The Monday morning quarterbacking with it's would'a, shoud'a, could'a is inevitable but he did what he thought was right at the time.
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October 12, 2010, 09:47 AM | #32 |
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I think the real problem, which has been mentioned by others is, somebody turned a robbery into a firefight, without making sure the customers were safe. The result is a dead little girl.
I spent 20 years in LE, and like most, I carried off duty, I had a similar situation at a KFC. Just after lunch, but still many customers in the store. I had a gun, I was off duty. I eyeballed the situation, getting every detail I could mentally list of the bandit. Then let him escape. I followed him at a distance until I could get a description of the car. Then called it in. Yeah I could have tried to stop him in the store, I could have confronted him outside, but there were customers in the store, there were customers fleeing the store. I kept my gun and ID hidden. No one was hurt, no shots fired. They bandit was caught less then 15 min. later. Its not about how many rounds you carry, its about knowing when not to shoot as well as when to shoot. Unless I'm missing something from the original story, the bandit was fleeing, no indication that he was going to hurt anyone. As far as 10 rounds in 2 seconds, I don't know if its possible or not, I don't know the individual nor the gun he was shooting. I do know in a stressful situation its difficult to tell 2 seconds from 5 or 10. I find it hard to believe anyone would consider timing themselves after the pucker factor kicks in.
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October 12, 2010, 09:54 AM | #33 |
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Just for info - I've seen six shots in 3.5 to 3.9 for lots of IDPA shooters with Glocks and other semis.
The estimate of time is meaningless as such judgments go out the window. The real point is made by several a few times. He started a gun fight (if the story is accurate) is an environment with significant risk of innocent lives as compared to the risk of the robber starting shooting if the crime just proceeded without interruption.
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October 12, 2010, 10:00 AM | #34 | |
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I don't consider the described incident as a SD situation. Not saying an off duty LEO should not try to stop a robbery, just saying I would have not engaged the BG unless I felt a direct threat. Even after reading said incident, I still fell comfortable carrying my 7 rds. (.45ACP) in my G36.
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October 12, 2010, 10:22 AM | #35 |
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If the officer in question, if this is true, had his stray round hit an innocent - do you think he should be prosecuted?
Killed an innocent or injured one in a manner that might be seen as negligent. Or if it was your family member, would you sue? Just curious.
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October 12, 2010, 10:42 AM | #36 |
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I looked up the robbery and from the limited info in the news article this did happen and a little girl was killed by the bad guys shot. It's was caught on video.
It happened on June 16th 1997 in Barstow CA. There are not enough details in the news story on how many shots were fired but the officer did mortally wound the bad guy. http://articles.latimes.com/1997-06-...d-s-restaurant
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October 12, 2010, 11:01 AM | #37 | |
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I should have highlighted the part of ammo.
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October 12, 2010, 11:18 AM | #38 | |||||
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I will build this post with quotes by others.
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kraigwy did it the way it should be done. |
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October 12, 2010, 11:26 AM | #39 |
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This does show the difference between a trained LEO and a CPL carrier. As a CPL your obligation ends at getting you and your family to safety. It is not to engage the criminal because you are armed. I read these boards a lot and am amazed at how many guys actually look to be involved in a situation. They seem to be saying "today might be the day" when they holster up for the day instead of saying "I hope this stays put all day".
The LEO went into cop mode after he thought his family was safe. A CPL would go out with his family to insure they were safe and motion to anyone else to follow quietly. He would then call 911 from a safe distance. I thought the story said they BG had a hostage. There is no guarantee that he would have left there peacefully if he already had a hostage and he saw people fleeing, screaming or whatever. There was no guarantee the BG would have left peacefully if the off duty LEO hadn't acted as he did. Someone could have dropped something when he saw the robbery and a loud noise could have set off shots that could have left many dead and wounded. What if this LEO had left with his family and called it in and it turned into a massacre because something set off the BG and 5 or 6 were killed. His consciance would eat at him the rest of his life as well. It's a lose/lose situation when things like this happen. The LEO did what his training taught him and he has to live with that. We aren't off duty LEOs, we are private citizens. If you want to shoot the BGs then become a cop. Wannabe cops scare the daylights out of me.
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October 12, 2010, 11:33 AM | #40 | |
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And here I thought policemen were there for law enforecement, not execution squads...... I don't want any LEOs hitting the street looking for somebody to shoot. Policemen carry sidearms for SD, same as anybody else. |
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October 12, 2010, 12:02 PM | #41 | |
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Huh? Execution squads? Self defense for cops? I think you are either splitting hairs and just trying to be controversial. I don't know many BGs who go out looking to shoot a cop (SD) but rather prey on helpless people. A cop may not be there to prevent a crime but he then goes out to hunt down the BG to bring him in "dead or alive" as the OLD saying goes. If you go into each day wishing you get to shoot someone then become a cop. The chances are a lot better you'll get your wish although there are probably 90%+ of the LEO population who never shot their gun in the line of duty. (guess on percentage). Another guess is that a LEO has a 1000x better chance of being in the position to use deadly force than the daily CPL. Wannabe cops still scare me.
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October 12, 2010, 12:06 PM | #42 |
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We are trying to decide if the LEO's actions were justified and it seems as if it's a big deal that he was off duty. If he had been in uniform would you condemn his actions? It seems that he tried his best to move people to safety and uphold the law. I'm just wondering if there would be a different response from himself and the forum if he was wearing different clothing?
I don't think I fault him for his actions. Why did the BG come back out to the front with his gun pulled? Didn't he already get the money from the back? What are his intentions now? Isn't he going to be slightly peeved when he notices that everyone leaves and can identify him? Too many questions to answer honestly. The main one that sticks out in my mind is that his gun is pulled, he's in public and he's already committed one crime at least. I guess the LEO could have waited to see what he was going to do. But tactically speaking I'm guessing the LEO had quite a bit bigger advantage from 15-20 yards using his shooting skills than from 5 yards where he's going to have a much higher chance of being randomly struck by a bullet. And yes, if it had been my daughter, I would be very very upset and may view the whole thing differently. And if I had been there I would have just exited with my family and called 911from safety. As all civilian should have done. |
October 12, 2010, 01:11 PM | #43 |
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My question:
Why did he shoot the BG 11 times? If it were me, I would double tap; one in the chest, one in the head; not spray 11 rounds all at once. Give me a break!
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October 12, 2010, 01:16 PM | #44 |
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You keep shooting until the threat is stopped.
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October 12, 2010, 02:20 PM | #45 | |
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Do I think Krgwy handled it better? Yes, no doubt. But with a dynamic and dangerous situation, should we expect human beings, whether LEOs or ourselves as armed civilians, to make perfect decisions in every moment? I am willing to say that you are asking too much of me if that is your expectation. Last edited by TailGator; October 12, 2010 at 02:42 PM. |
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October 12, 2010, 02:30 PM | #46 | |
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Others may think different. |
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October 12, 2010, 02:49 PM | #47 | |
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October 12, 2010, 02:55 PM | #48 | |
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The sole difference with the uniformed cop is that the uniform itself can trigger a gunfight. Better to get that uniform completely out of sight, if this is a place where you don't want a gunfight to happen. As a CCW holder, my first plan would be to fade back, hide, watch, look like any other type of civilian, and start a gunfight ONLY! if the alternatives are worse, like if the goblin turned full-on murderer, rapist, etc. Then he's going to get a Gold Dot surprise.
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October 12, 2010, 02:56 PM | #49 |
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I have no LEO experience & i have never needed to use a firearm in a life or death situation. I feel bad for the guy, it's really one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. You make decisions based on what you know and what you think you know at the time.
Why was the fire exit door locked? I thought the whole point of them was to allow customers easy egress in the event of an emergency. Perhaps an emergency such as a fire, robbery, earthquake, gas leak...
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October 12, 2010, 03:43 PM | #50 |
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I truly belive this story cements my position on staying the heck out of McDonalds. Been beat up in one myself.
Everyone makes dicesions, he made one that turned bad for the little girl. I fault the BG 100%. Myself? I owuld have gotten my family out, then get as much info as possible IE license plate maybe a pic with the cell phone etc. |
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