Need .38/40 load inf.

Johnny Guest · March 11, 2007, 09:02 PM

I just obtained a 1903-vintage 1873 carbine. It is mechanically perfect, with a very good bore. I'd like to shoot it and perhaps even hunt with it.

Since factory Winchester ammo --180 gr JSP-- is around $40 a box in my area, I'm already on the loookout for dies and such.

The problem is this - - I can't find much data for this cartridge - - About all I see to try to use to duplicate factory ammo is the 180 gt Sierra JHP but they don't give any rifle or carbine velocities in the pistol loading section of my Alliant handbook.

I guess I need to break down and buy another Lyman Cast Bullet Loading handbook. In the meantime, I'd appreciate any suggestions

Could you share with me some of your information? What bullet do you use? If it's cast, what diameter? How about powder and charge amounts?

I'm already aware of the inherently delicate construction of the cases, and that you can't get carbide dies to load 'em.

I'd like two levels of loads - -

1. Something suitable to shoot small whitetail deer at close range. Either cast or jacketed would be okay. A load duplicating the 180 gr factory number would probably be fine.

2. A light-to-medium plinking load using cast bullets for sure. Perhaps some of the Cowboy Action shooters would have something suitable.

Thanks in advance - -
Johnny

timothy75 · March 12, 2007, 03:59 AM

You can get .401 molds at midwayusa.com and load data at hodgdon.com. If your talking about black powder just fill the cases up till 1/8th'' past where the bullet will seat. With a hard cast flat point 180gr bullet you'll be good for close range deer. The 30-40 is often listed in the rifle section when looking for both bullets and data so check both. Hodgdon also has a cas loading section that would fit your plinking loads. Theres a ton of data at handloads.com also including an Alliant section. Good luck

Trapper L · March 12, 2007, 09:11 PM

From an old Ideal loading manual #38:
Lead bullets, 180 gr:
8.0 grs Unique= 1280'ps
15.5 grs SR 4759= 1415'ps
22.6 grs 2400= 1870'ps

Jacketed bullets, 180 gr:
26.0 grs 2400= 1950'ps
30.5 grs 4227= 2100'ps
18.0 grs SR 4759= 1765'ps

FWIW, I have an old model 92 Winchester in this caliber. I don't push the rifle at all because the brass is going to be weak by design and splits are common. I use 8.0 grs of Unique with a lead bullet with a gas check. It will hunt to 100 yds on small to medium game. In an old Winchester catalog, it shows factory loading for this cartridge of a 180 gr SP at 1320'ps in a rifle. The same load from a pistol produced 715'ps. Lyman #45 shows the accuracy load of 8.0 grs Unique for a pistol at the same 715'ps. Might want to start a little lower of that load and work up but the 8.0grs Unique I consider as max with any bullet in the Winchester. Hope this helpful.
Trapper

**Mike Irwin** · March 12, 2007, 09:33 PM

Made in 1903?

This is the only thing I have to offer...

NO JACKETED BULLETS!!!

Johnny Guest · March 16, 2007, 08:53 PM

Mike - -

Your subtle and soft spoken advice is clearly noted.

Could you please expand/expound? Does it have something to do with the mild grade of barrel steel used at that time? Perhaps jacketed bullets would wash out the rifling rapidly?

I understand that the 1873 toggle action locking system is a LOT weaker than the 1892. It appears that the Winchester 180 gr. JSP factory load is loaded to mild pressures, undoubtedly in deference to the '73 models.

I got two boxes of that ammo in the deal, and I've fired some 25 rounds. Have I totally ruined my barrel?

Hope not, 'cause it was really pretty accurate at 50 yards.

I value your input, sir.

Johnny

**Mike Irwin** · March 17, 2007, 09:26 AM

"Does it have something to do with the mild grade of barrel steel used at that time?"

It has everything to do with the mild steel used in that era.

Winchester apparently didn't update the steels on some of its older, black-powder era guns as the company moved into the smokeless/jacketed bullet age.

Rifles like the 1905 self-loading used jacketed bullets from the get go, but they also used the newer, more expensive, nickle steel barrels that were far better able to withstand the wear of jacketed bullets.

The 1892, the 1894, and the 1895 were apparently all designed with the new nickle steel barrel, as well. Especially important in the case of the 1895.

And no, you've not ruined your barrel. You haven't done it any favors, but you've not ruined it with that relatively limited number of rounds.

Over the years, though, I have seen numerous barrels that show pretty severe wear from chamber to muzzle from shooting jacketed bullets.

Johnny Guest · March 17, 2007, 09:41 AM

Much obliged, Mike.

Johnny

March 11, 2007, 09:02 PM	#1
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Need .38/40 load inf. I just obtained a 1903-vintage 1873 carbine. It is mechanically perfect, with a very good bore. I'd like to shoot it and perhaps even hunt with it. Since factory Winchester ammo --180 gr JSP-- is around $40 a box in my area, I'm already on the loookout for dies and such. The problem is this - - I can't find much data for this cartridge - - About all I see to try to use to duplicate factory ammo is the 180 gt Sierra JHP but they don't give any rifle or carbine velocities in the pistol loading section of my Alliant handbook. I guess I need to break down and buy another Lyman Cast Bullet Loading handbook. In the meantime, I'd appreciate any suggestions Could you share with me some of your information? What bullet do you use? If it's cast, what diameter? How about powder and charge amounts? I'm already aware of the inherently delicate construction of the cases, and that you can't get carbide dies to load 'em. I'd like two levels of loads - - 1. Something suitable to shoot small whitetail deer at close range. Either cast or jacketed would be okay. A load duplicating the 180 gr factory number would probably be fine. 2. A light-to-medium plinking load using cast bullets for sure. Perhaps some of the Cowboy Action shooters would have something suitable. Thanks in advance - - Johnny

March 16, 2007, 08:53 PM	#5
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Thanks for the info, everyone. Mike - - Your subtle and soft spoken advice is clearly noted. Could you please expand/expound? Does it have something to do with the mild grade of barrel steel used at that time? Perhaps jacketed bullets would wash out the rifling rapidly? I understand that the 1873 toggle action locking system is a LOT weaker than the 1892. It appears that the Winchester 180 gr. JSP factory load is loaded to mild pressures, undoubtedly in deference to the '73 models. I got two boxes of that ammo in the deal, and I've fired some 25 rounds. Have I totally ruined my barrel? Hope not, 'cause it was really pretty accurate at 50 yards. I value your input, sir. Johnny

March 17, 2007, 09:26 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"Does it have something to do with the mild grade of barrel steel used at that time?" It has everything to do with the mild steel used in that era. Winchester apparently didn't update the steels on some of its older, black-powder era guns as the company moved into the smokeless/jacketed bullet age. Rifles like the 1905 self-loading used jacketed bullets from the get go, but they also used the newer, more expensive, nickle steel barrels that were far better able to withstand the wear of jacketed bullets. The 1892, the 1894, and the 1895 were apparently all designed with the new nickle steel barrel, as well. Especially important in the case of the 1895. And no, you've not ruined your barrel. You haven't done it any favors, but you've not ruined it with that relatively limited number of rounds. Over the years, though, I have seen numerous barrels that show pretty severe wear from chamber to muzzle from shooting jacketed bullets. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 17, 2007, 09:41 AM	#7
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Gotcha. Much obliged, Mike. Johnny

March 12, 2007, 03:59 AM	#2
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	You can get .401 molds at midwayusa.com and load data at hodgdon.com. If your talking about black powder just fill the cases up till 1/8th'' past where the bullet will seat. With a hard cast flat point 180gr bullet you'll be good for close range deer. The 30-40 is often listed in the rifle section when looking for both bullets and data so check both. Hodgdon also has a cas loading section that would fit your plinking loads. Theres a ton of data at handloads.com also including an Alliant section. Good luck

March 12, 2007, 09:11 PM	#3
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	From an old Ideal loading manual #38: Lead bullets, 180 gr: 8.0 grs Unique= 1280'ps 15.5 grs SR 4759= 1415'ps 22.6 grs 2400= 1870'ps Jacketed bullets, 180 gr: 26.0 grs 2400= 1950'ps 30.5 grs 4227= 2100'ps 18.0 grs SR 4759= 1765'ps FWIW, I have an old model 92 Winchester in this caliber. I don't push the rifle at all because the brass is going to be weak by design and splits are common. I use 8.0 grs of Unique with a lead bullet with a gas check. It will hunt to 100 yds on small to medium game. In an old Winchester catalog, it shows factory loading for this cartridge of a 180 gr SP at 1320'ps in a rifle. The same load from a pistol produced 715'ps. Lyman #45 shows the accuracy load of 8.0 grs Unique for a pistol at the same 715'ps. Might want to start a little lower of that load and work up but the 8.0grs Unique I consider as max with any bullet in the Winchester. Hope this helpful. Trapper

March 12, 2007, 09:33 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Made in 1903? This is the only thing I have to offer... NO JACKETED BULLETS!!! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.