Bullpups for Self Defense

[stonewall50]

Rifles for Self Defense has really come along way with the dropping of the assault weapons ban. So now we have the question of which rifle? Almost universally it was the ar15 that was put out there. Go figure. But now some people are looking at other options. Specifically the Bullpup.

So I am curious how others see these rifles? I also found this article interesting. Especially when looking at it in a civilian perspective. So here we go:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2015/...fense-arsenal/

[Slopemeno]

I have a Hi-Standard 10-B bullpup shotgun, and I've shot it at shotgun side matches, which were usually five pepper poppers for time.

I don't have a problem using it. The handling is a little strange, as it's tail-heavy to say the least. You have to work a little harder to get that front sight on target and keep it there.

My 18" Remington 870 OR My 10-B and both shorter than a pistol help in Weaver or Isosceles. I suppose you can't shoot it off the left shoulder, but I've managed the transition by pushing out out and shooting it so the ejection port is ahead of my face.

A friend owned a Steyer Aug at one time, and it was fast and accurate.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Slopemeno

I have a Hi-Standard 10-B bullpup shotgun, and I've shot it at shotgun side matches, which were usually five pepper poppers for time.



I don't have a problem using it. The handling is a little strange, as it's tail-heavy to say the least. You have to work a little harder to get that front sight on target and keep it there.



My 18" Remington 870 OR My 10-B and both shorter than a pistol help in Weaver or Isosceles. I suppose you can't shoot it off the left shoulder, but I've managed the transition by pushing out out and shooting it so the ejection port is ahead of my face.



A friend owned a Steyer Aug at one time, and it was fast and accurate.

Never considered them for shotgun use lol. I suppose they are out there. I just like my 870 lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ttarp]

So I am curious how others see these rifles?

Well designed compact rifles that make use of space thats wasted in conventional designs. Offer a high power rifle not much longer than a handgun in outstretched arms is.

Heavier triggers is one of the few legitimate complaints, and of course ridiculous prices. But they aren't meant to be budget AR's either.

[dakota.potts]

I think there is still development to do in the bullpup field. In my mind, a few recent developments (The KSG and the Tavor line) have shown moderate popularity even among crowds who are not typical "bullpup fanatics". I think this has a lot to do with the utility and price of these two models and other guns will compete their way into the market place for self defense purposes if they can offer good quality and utility. With $3,000 guns coming out of forms like Desert Tech, there will always be a barrier to entry regardless of how effective they are. Start to compete with the price of an AR or AK and you really have something you can win people over with.

[ttarp]

I would argue the main reason for the Tavors success is the strong advertising campaign they ran right before its release, no other bullpup company has put anywhere near the same effort into advertising their rifles(well maybe desert tech, but they're how many years late on delivery now?).

Kel-Tec's RDB is a promising looking rifle at a reasonable price point, but so many folks dislike KT as a company and don't trust their products, and the spotty availability doesn't help anything either.

Start to compete with the price of an AR or AK and you really have something you can win people over with.

Pretty much this. The way every new rifle or different design gets compared to budget AR's its difficult to compete with a $1500 price tag.

[Kvon2]

I think they would fit the role well but given the typical​ cost I won't be buying one any time soon.

I do most of my rifle shooting from the bench which isn't ideal when the rifle is ejecting from the bottom like many of these rifles do. I probably wouldn't put in the right amount of practice to rely on one.

[rickyrick]

I have no issues with capability of bullpups.

I do have personal misgivings about my face being so close to the chamber.

[MagnumWill]

Right there with you Ricky...


I would love to get a Tavor, but after taking a low light pistol course, anything within the confines of my house will be engaged with a pistol. I have an AR pistol as well as a 16" carbine, and honestly the carbine and AR pistol are about the same in the unwieldy-ness department. I think moving in close quarters is all about not having both hands occupied by the gun. Outdoors? No question, rifles all the way.

YMMV.

[kozak6]

If you think a rifle is the best way to go for self defense, then the bullpup layout is quite sensible.

The problem is that a Tavor or an Aug is going to be around $1600, and AR's are cheaper than ever before.

A Ruger or an S&W might be had for around $500 or a hair less.

The $1100 difference could be put to training and ammo, optics, a pile of uppers, or even a new safe. If you skip training, it could get a premium AR, a premium optic, and maybe even a premium weaponlight.

If bullpups were available for $1000, they would be a reasonable choice. Otherwise, it's difficult to consider them at 3x the price of a decent AR. Or at least it is for me. Your budget may allow otherwise.

[ronl]

I got to wring out the Tavor and the X-95 a few months ago and I was not really impressed with them. The Tavor is heavy and just average as far as accuracy is concerned, while the X-95 was less accurate but lighter. The triggers were less than stellar. I don't really see any advantage over a 14.5 AR that would induce me to fork over the amount of money they are asking for them.

[rep1954]

I have been checking out bull pups for a while now but never felt comfortable enough to make the jump. I have come to the conclusion that a SBR is more to my liking. About 1 1/2 years ago my state became a SBR friendly state. I believe a AR15, 11 1/2" barreled SBR with a A2 Entry stock would serve me just as well exspecially with it's familiarity with my other AR's. With only about a loss of 230 fps the 11 1/2" barrel is still effective at self defense distances compared to the longer carbine length AR's. Not to mention that with a SBR AR you are opened to customizing the gun to fit your needs to order and triggers are many to choose from. Just my 2 cents which doesn't mean a bull pup isn't right for some else.

[bbqncigars]

While I love my Kel-Tec RDB for handling and trigger pull, my HD gun is the first edition Kimber Compact. The pistol is easier to maneuver than any rifle, and I don't miss the extra magazine capacity. The doo-doo would have to be unsurvivably deep to require a 30 round Pmag.

[DMK]

I agree with the others. I really like the concept. Cost and trigger feel are the biggest hindrances.

The Keltec promises that the RDB solves both problems. However, availability is the big problem with the Keltec unfortunately.

Once I come across a compact 16" RDB-S though, I'm willing to put some of my money on it and see if they are right.

Potentially a bullpup could replace the AR15 for me as the go-to gun.

[stephen426]

I'm not sure how many of us really need assault rifles for self-defense (barring an all out riot or natural disaster). I keep a Kel-Tec KSG for home defense with buckshot in one tube and slugs in the other. Rifled slugs are highly accurate out of that gun. I saw videos of people hitting gongs reliably at 100 yards with a red dot sight. I only used mine indoors but it was plenty accurate.

[DMK]

stephen426, what is this 'need' you speak of? Just joking.

I actually like a carbine because of accuracy and fast follow up shots. Round capacity is a bonus.

Maybe it's just me, but even at 20 yards, I can shoot a lot more accurately and put rounds more quickly on target with a carbine than I can any handgun.

Something like a bullpup is also more compact indoors than a handgun in extended position.

I'm just not good with a shotgun. I have one I've owned for a dozen years and never warmed up to it. A bullpup shotgun is not a bad idea at all though.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by DMK

stephen426, what is this 'need' you speak of? Just joking.

I actually like a carbine because of accuracy and fast follow up shots. Round capacity is a bonus.

Maybe it's just me, but even at 20 yards, I can shoot a lot more accurately and put rounds more quickly on target with a carbine than I can any handgun.

Something like a bullpup is also more compact indoors than a handgun in extended position.

I'm just not good with a shotgun. I have one I've owned for a dozen years and never warmed up to it. A bullpup shotgun is not a bad idea at all though.

DMK,

I was thinking of the muzzle blast in an enclosed space. Firing a rifle in a small enclosed space is a way louder than a handgun (especially if the suppressor law goes through). Handguns are also much more maneuverable, even compared to a bullpup style gun. Handguns are much lighter and can be easily fired with one hand.

It is best to go with a layered approach when it comes to security. I have an alarm and I have cameras installed around my house. If the alarm went off, I would grab my pistol and then get my girls. Their rooms are close so I would go back to the master bedroom and use that as the safe room. I would then grab the Keltec KSG and train it on the door. Anyone who comes busting through the door is going to get a few rounds of buckshot. I am fortunate to live in a very good area and police response time is very fast. Whatever someone can carry off in less than 5 minutes it takes for the police to arrive is fine with me. Anyone who tries to harm my family (especially my little ones) will be met with lethal force.

So basically, from a barricaded position, a bullpup doesn't make that much of a position.

[ttarp]

To be fair, bullpups are absurdly easy to fire with one hand. Obviously you have your HD response planned out thoroughly, just saying.

[Double Naught Spy]

Gotta appreciate how folks have things figured out of how a given self defense situation will go, for not only themselves, but others and from that have determined what people will need.

As the teaching goes, battle plans don't survive first contact.

If you wish to have a long gun for self/home defense, then the most compact version is likely the most utilitarian version to have. Maybe you get to barricade in a nice big bedroom. Maybe you get to barricade in a broom closet.

[benEzra]

A 9mm pistol is my de facto primary because it is my EDC and close at hand, but I now have a 16" Tavor with light and red dot for anything with a few seconds' warning.

The nice thing about a Tavor or similar short, rearward-balanced carbine is that they are a lot handier to wield in confined spaces than more typical carbines (I also own a 16" AR with adjustable stock, for reference), and can be wielded reasonably effectively one-handed (with either hand) temporarily when opening doors or leading a child to safety just as a pistol can be. You generally can't use a weapon light while shooting a long gun one-handed, though, so keep that in mind. I also have started shooting the Tavor for fun in local carbine matches, and it's a hoot.

Mine is about 27" overall with a 16" barrel and flash suppressor. The trigger is heavier than an AR's, though not as heavy as the early Tavors (IWI redesigned the trigger pack for the X95 to lighten the pull somewhat, and the newer Tavors use the X95-style setup). Geissle makes an excellent replacement trigger and FCG, but I decided for an HD gun I liked the pull weight right where it was from the factory. Barrel is cold-hammer-forged and chrome lined, and it has flip-up metal BUIS built into the top rail, with a tritium insert up front.

At least for me, the Tavor is faster than the AR in target transitions, faster in shoulder transitions, faster in moving through my tight hallways/doors, and slightly faster to reload. Being lighter in the hands, and using a long-stroke gas piston system and heavier trigger, it does lose big-time to the AR in long-range accuracy, and my splits are a little slower due to more muzzle jump (shorter rifle with less inertial moment, and a heavy long-stroke gas piston).

And yes, they are pricey. I could have bought a Noveske or Daniel Defense AR for what I paid for mine, but I am very pleased with it.

[rickyrick]

http://katu.com/news/nation-world/ok...s-fathers-home

Here's at least one incident involving a carbine probably, or a rifle.

However, I don't buy the witness account of the gunfire sounding like thunder from down the street in a closed house.... standard AR15 rifles do not sound like thunder from down the street.

[barnbwt]

If bullpups were available for $1000, they would be a reasonable choice. Otherwise, it's difficult to consider them at 3x the price of a decent AR. Or at least it is for me. Your budget may allow otherwise.

RDBs are less than a grand, btw...

I posted elsewhere;

Wow, a lot more discussion on this topic than I'd imagined; 2017 really is shaping up to be the year of the Pup if you think about it (also year of the Grendel)

I was on my phone so I couldn't elaborate much, but the RDB has the *potential* to be one of if not the most compelling rifle designs of recent memory. Especially if you look upon all the various SCAR/G36/BREN "next generation" designs as AR18 re-hashes, and all other non-bullpups as the AR10/15 rehashes they are.

For a mechanical gun geek, it's a very interesting gun. Unique trigger group reminiscent of an HK roller guns's trigger/floating sear arrangement. Very innovative U-shaped hammer that lets brass be ejected through its legs. Incredibly intelligent hammer power delivery via linkage, eliminating the need to deliver delicate trigger forces by linkage like most all previous bullpups. Captive recoil/guide rod assembly reminiscent of an HK. Super short BCG assembly like a QBZ-95, with a long SCAR-like spring housing that is struck on the tip by the piston. The piston has a hollow rear-end that sits over the guide rod to support its front end. The sight rail is rigidly clamped to the barrel at the gas block & rear 1/3rd areas so there is no cantilevered gas-system mass to vibrate, and sturdy enough to control barrel whip (this is why such a thin and inexpensive barrel seems to shoot so well, in my estimation). The bottom-eject is not only incredibly convenient in a number of ways, the additional bolt travel is requires in conjunction with a highly adjustable gas system means the gun can be tuned to nearly 'constant recoil' operation (and if select-fire, a very low & controllable rate of fire). The bolt head is rather ingenious in shape, having a very large claw between two vertical lugs at the bottom position, larger rounded AR-style lugs like the Knights Armory guns, with twin ejector buttons, and sized somewhere between AR15 and AR10 size perfect for planned Grendel variants (and other larger/hotter chamberings). The RDB even has a nonreciprocating, folding charging handle, with a built in forward-assist. Gas-face is impossible since there are no openings anywhere near the shooter's face. Very clever gun all around.

The gun is incredibly modular yet far more compact than an AR in doing so; everything to the rear of the barrel extension is easily removed by 2 pushpins, the front handguard removed by one additional pin. Rather than clamping a barrel extension into a glorified aluminum tube with an obnoxious nut, the barrel extension on the RDB has a pushpin hole machined into its lower portion, and a simple castle nut secures the barrel to it. The short size means no optical devices will ever *not* be mounted on the barrel rail.

Legally, it's both brilliant and amazing Kel-Tec pulled this one off on the ATF; the serialized part is the steel cheek rest, which is even less complex than an AK dust cover. A straight-bent sheet metal section with three sets of pushpin holes and some spot-welded flat-stock bolt rails. Cheap 80% flats are almost guaranteed if the gun gets popular.

Functionally, it's more of a mixed bag since a lot of folks simply don't like what bullpups have to offer, and nothing can change that. But the HK-style charging handle that can be locked back into a notch & slapped to release, and the mag catch that can be operated with the back of the hand make the different ergonomics about as convenient as possible. The only flaw is a magwell that's slightly harder to find, and again, is part & parcel of the bullpup format & unavoidable. The rear-set manual bolt release is also in a bad spot, but I have come to just use the gun as though it lacked a manual release & just use the charging handle anyway. The gas regulator has way too many adjustment points & the detent positions are way too soft so it's easy to bump it off setting. It also vents into the handgaurd instead of forward, and is the FAL 'vent type' of valve so it cannot be shut off completely for silent operation. When you don't give the piston enough gas, you get a nasty short-stroke double feed of the fired/extracted case and the next unfired round rammed into the barrel extension together, which is cleared by dropping the mag and prying the two destroyed cases out with fingers or a tool. Because the lower/grip/FCG housing is almost all plastic, dry firing the trigger without the BCG in front of it causes irreparable damage. I'm also pretty sure it isn't hearing safe to dry-fire assembled, since my ear rings if I drop the hammer on an empty chamber (it hits *way* harder than most small rifle hammers). And on my gun & many others, the rather weak mag-catch device will not properly secure metal mags (and at least one of my gen 2 Pmags won't retain properly either) which offsets some of its convenience.



Like so many other Kel-tec designs (or is it Kelgren designs?) there is a whole lot of genuine brilliance and potential. It's also subsequently produced at a lower quality & pricepoint than most folks are accustomed to where it concerns cutting edge tech, and this combined with the typical teething issues of all new stuff gives them a bad rep for reliability. I will say this gun is a significant step up in quality from most of their other stuff except maybe the RFB, but there's still cheap-outs in random places that will irk people. Somehow, there are also touches of surprising quality, like the steel hardpoints installed where the bolt handle locks back on the aluminum sight rail. But it can't be said enough that this is a truly ambidextrous short-stroke bullpup 5.56 that shoots <2MOA out of the box, available for under a grand on a good day; that's pretty damned impressive compared to the competition if you ask me. And apart from the magazine issue, I've had no problems once I got the gas system dialed in (still sucks that if you do get it wrong, the malfunction is so nasty to clear). But there are people who've had issues with the recoil spring releasing due to a missing weld, and the extractor claw pivot pin walking out & tying up a gun (it's been like six people that I've heard of out of however many guns sold so far, though)

Oh, unlike some of the other bullpups like the AUG or Tavors, the magwell is just far enough back to reasonably carry a 60rnd Magpul drum without wacky wrist contortions. The gun also effectively polices its own brass, with or without a brass catcher, and does not damage cases bouncing them down the shiny steel ejection chute (I'd use a catcher if running & gunning on a concrete surface, though )

TCB

[DMK]

I was thinking of the muzzle blast in an enclosed space. Firing a rifle in a small enclosed space is a way louder than a handgun (especially if the suppressor law goes through). Handguns are also much more maneuverable, even compared to a bullpup style gun. Handguns are much lighter and can be easily fired with one hand.

Those are good points (Though muzzle blast of a PCC is little different than an equivalent caliber handgun). It depends on your situation, the space available and your tactics plan. Your plan makes sense, but it might not be best for someone else or in a different situation.

Keep in mind some of us live in rural areas with a lot of land space so SD isn't always indoors and it also might be the need to shoot four legged carnivores attacking family, pets or livestock. In the latter situation, the accuracy of a carbine is a pretty important benefit.

[DMK]

As the teaching goes, battle plans don't survive first contact.

I have also been taught that "Failing to plan is planning to fail".

Having a flexible plan and trying to adapt it based on circumstance is better than trying to just make something up on the fly when a situation happens.

[peggysue]

The AR TECHNOLOGY BLASTS AWAY THE BULL PUP. MAKES ONE SAY WHY FOR 223 AND 308. JMO