Short Barrel 357 SD rounds

[j102]

Originally Posted by Sudo

There is also a Speer 135 gr short barrel Gold Dot in 38 special +P that has a good reputation.



That might be a reasonable alternative.

That is one of the best choices for a short barrel revolver.

[TBM900]

Yes caliber debates will continue on, but largely due to people relying on emotion and anecdotes rather than real world experience, physics, and physiology. Such is why the ammunition manufacturers have all spent millions trying to get folks to buy their brand of $2 boutique cartridge versus the one sitting next to it on the shelf.

The reality is that there actually isnt that much to debate in terms of self defense:
-Shooting accurately trumps all else
-Accuracy is only trumped by shooting accurately quickly
-Capacity compensates for inaccuracy only if the other guy is inaccurate

As for caliber selection, bullet and cartridge type, I think if more folks hunted in general (but especially with handguns) they would realize that there really isn't much difference in practical center fire handguns...they all kind of suck. Even better would be if they could spend some time involved with emergency medicine, their notions of debate points would quickly fly out the window.

The same can be said for relying on YouTube videos of jello-shots to make conclusions as to 'which is best' (hint: I've yet to see a gunshot wound that looked anything like the results seen in YT ballistic gel 'tests')

But back to the point, the increase in noise, blast, flash, and recoil from a $2 boutique 357 cartridge fired out of a 2" or less revolver does not provide any practical gains over the humble 148gr wadcutter. In fact, the wadcutter IME produces at least equal results all while producing fewer negative effects for the shooter to deal with.

-But 357 produces more ft/lbs so it simply MUST be better
-But 357 makes a huge boom so it simply MUST be better
-But 357 makes big 'stretch cavities' in YT videos so it MUST be better
-But 357 HP expands to 0.693729761592" so it MUST be better
-But the modern 357 I just bought cost $1.97 per round and came in a fancy box so it has to be better than your century old lowly 15 cent cartridge...the ammo company told me so.

Yes the debate will continue......for some

[TBM900]

OP here is any shooters best plan...

Go out and buy a wide selection of cartridges, 38, 357, heavy, light, etc, etc.
Practice with all of them to find out for yourself what you can shoot the best.
Then it simply boils down to practicing regularly with that load.

Do not fall into the trap of practicing with one load but then keep it loaded with something else, that simply builds bad technique. Also remember that with a BUG/CCW firearm, drawing and firing accurately/quickly is countless factors higher in importance than which cartridge you select. The only caveat is that if your selected load is such that you don't like to practice (or can't afford to), then your resulting performance will suffer.

[Hal]

In fact, the wadcutter IME produces at least equal results all while producing fewer negative effects for the shooter to deal with.

Replace that w/158 grain SWCHP & I'm in complete agreement.
I find the SWC feeds better.

[Nanuk]

I had a 360 PD when they came out. I shoot my guns. I put a couple hundred assorted reloads and factory thru it. It was brutal, after 50 rounds of magnums my hand was numb. After about 200 rounds it went out of time. Sent it back to Smith, came back with a new frame and cylinder. Shot another 100 rounds, out of time, sent it in, came back with a new frame. I called Smith and was told it was not really meant for magnums, and certainly was not meant to be shot alot.

I sold the $800 38 special and never looked back. all my magnums are steel.

[BoogieMan]

I had a 360 PD when they came out. I shoot my guns. I put a couple hundred assorted reloads and factory thru it. It was brutal, after 50 rounds of magnums my hand was numb. After about 200 rounds it went out of time. Sent it back to Smith, came back with a new frame and cylinder. Shot another 100 rounds, out of time, sent it in, came back with a new frame. I called Smith and was told it was not really meant for magnums, and certainly was not meant to be shot alot.

I sold the $800 38 special and never looked back. all my magnums are steel.

Not confusing the 340CT with a range gun. This is purely for an instance of duty weapon is gone or unreachable. The only reason to shoot it at all is to qualify

[BigJimP]

My 2" revolvers are not airweights...but when I carry them ---

Its either a model 66 ( K frame ) 2" ( 6 shot)...or an N frame ( model 627 - an 8 shot ) in a 2 5/8"...and I carry them with Black Hills 158gr JHP. I put a box thru each of them ...and some of my 4" and 6" revolvers as well...and in general, they're fine to shoot in a K frame and very easy to shoot in the N frame...

I think you'll find the 158 gr is less snappy than the 125 gr or whatever options are out there.../ and its the traditional weight bullet in .357 mag.

I'm not a big fan of the airweights ...but I understand why you bought one .../ so I would suggest you test it with a 158gr load in .357 mag....and see if that will work for him. I would never reload my carry ammo ...it just brings up too many questions.

[Real Gun]

I think buying a 357 Magnum gun and then relying on 38 Special makes no sense, especially for the reloader. But then some of the favored guns are not available as 38 Special only, frame and cylinder already sized for 357 Magnum. I suppose you could have 38 Special chambers to ensure that 357 Magnum rounds are not loaded by mistake.

My experience with two Smith Model 60s leads me to suggest either the 357 "Lite" commercial rounds or reloading using the range between 38 +p and 357 Magnum minimum, wherein they both use the same bullet and powder. This will likely be one of the faster-burning than magnum powders, which could well be superior, certainly more efficient, if more of the powder burn occurs before the bullet exits the barrel.

[TBM900]

I think buying a 357 Magnum gun and then relying on 38 Special makes no sense

Why exactly does it "make no sense"?
What is the down side?

[Cheapshooter]

I think buying a 357 Magnum gun and then relying on 38 Special makes no sense

Not to me either. But, to the recoil sensitive, they think the couple ounces of added weight helps reduce recoil of the already relatively mild 38 Spcl round. Not necessarily the case with the S&W subject of this thread, but I have heard that comment a lot concerning the Ruger LCR 38Spcl. vs 357 Magnum models.

[jmr40]

When you get below 4" any 357 mag is going to be a LOT slower than factory numbers show.

Changing powders will make minimal difference.

Some guns/barrels are effected much more than others, and there isn't much you can do about it. It is just the luck of the draw. You and a buddy could own identical guns, shoot the same loads through them and one may be significantly faster than the other.

Lighter bullet weights need more speed to be effective. Traditionally if you can't get enough speed a heavier bullet that performs better at low speed anyway is the better option.

With a 357 with a 2-3" barrel I'd be looking at 158 gr bullets.

[TBM900]

But, to the recoil sensitive

It has nothing to do with being 'sensitive', rather its simple physics, something one cannot pretend does not exist.

they think the couple ounces of added weight helps reduce recoil of the already relatively mild 38 Spcl round

Ive never heard anyone assert such a thing.
Rather, its the simple fact that the vast VAST majority of current production revolvers can only be had in 357.

[HighValleyRanch]

Ive never heard anyone assert such a thing.
Rather, its the simple fact that the vast VAST majority of current production revolvers can only be had in 357.

No, actually there has been a lot of discussions and arguments on the LCR topics that choosing the .357 LCR over the .38 LCR for the extra 4 ounces is beneficial to absorbing the .38 recoil. Look up some threads on this subject and you will see that argument. I myself don't agree with it, but it's out there.

and of course the other argument for obtaining the .357 LCR over the .38 is the stainless frame over the .38 aluminum frame.

It has nothing to do with being 'sensitive', rather its simple physics, something one cannot pretend does not exist.

True the physics doesn't change, but what one person can absorb might be too much for another, so yes there are variances in reaction to exactly the same physics output.

[Real Gun]

Why exactly does it "make no sense"?
What is the down side?

• A chambered round should have a bullet that meets the throat.
• The cylinder and frame window are longer than should be necessary.
• Cartridges shorter than the chamber present a cleaning nuisance.
• The alloy and weight are supporting performance demands that will never be used.
• The gun overall is sturdier and then heavier and larger than necessary.
• Accuracy is not likely what it could be in a properly fitting gun, dedicated to the cartridge.

[HighValleyRanch]

A chambered round should have a bullet that meets the throat.
The cylinder and frame window are longer than should be necessary.
Cartridges shorter than the chamber present a cleaning nuisance.
The alloy and weight are supporting performance demands that will never be used.
The gun overall is sturdier and then heavier and larger than necessary.
Accuracy is not likely what it could be in a properly fitting gun, dedicated to the cartridge.

1. You statement made me get out my two LCR's and measure them. No, the frame window and cylinders between the .38 and .357 are identical.
2. You are only talking about 4 ounces difference.
3. The differences caused by chamber differences in accuracy at SD distances will never be a problem.

[Real Gun]

1. You statement made me get out my two LCR's and measure them. No, the frame window and cylinders between the .38 and .357 are identical.
2. You are only talking about 4 ounces difference.
3. The differences caused by chamber differences in accuracy at SD distances will never be a problem.

This is not necessarily about an LCR.

You misunderstand about the cylinder window point. Existing LCR's, a modern design is self justifying. They make it to fit and withstand the magnum. They might use different metal for a 38-only but the same pattern or mold as the 357. Older pre-magnum gun designs in 38 K-frame just shortened the throats to force in the 357 and came with the recommendation to shoot mostly 38 Special.

[Cheapshooter]

Ive never heard anyone assert such a thing.
Rather, its the simple fact that the vast VAST majority of current production revolvers can only be had in 357.

Wrong, and wrong.
As HighValleyRanch correctly stated, most every discussion here on TFL, and other forums contain comments about buying the 357 LCR for 38 Spcl use because the extra weight might help reduce felt recoil. Very common topic.
A quick look through S&W's catalog shows numerious 38 Special only J frame guns, and even the venerable K frame Model 10 still offered.
Similar offerings from Taurus, and in a .357 diameter bullet chambering, Charter Arms only offers 38 Spcl. Throw in EAA Windicator that offers both a 357 Magnum, and 38 Spcl. only, and Armscor with their 38 Spcl only revolvers, and there are quite a few 38 Spcl revolvers in the market. Far from a double vast majority.

[seeker_two]

The weight difference between an Airweight .38Spl revolver and a steel-frame .357Mag revolver is significant enough to reduce recoil when firing .38 Special......

[Nanuk]

-But 357 produces more ft/lbs so it simply MUST be better
-But 357 makes a huge boom so it simply MUST be better
-But 357 makes big 'stretch cavities' in YT videos so it MUST be better
-But 357 HP expands to 0.693729761592" so it MUST be better
-But the modern 357 I just bought cost $1.97 per round and came in a fancy box so it has to be better than your century old lowly 15 cent cartridge...the ammo company told me so.

Yes the debate will continue......for some

But the 357 magnum works more consistently.

http://www.luckygunner.com/357-mag-1...htp-500-rounds

$.62 per round.

[seeker_two]

That round will get you killed on the street......if you're a mugger mugging someone carrying that......

[Mike1]

I shot two (2) 357 gold dot short bbl loads through my 340CT. One without a shooting glove, one with. Both to me had brutal recoil.

I tried the 38 spl gold dot load and for me it is controllable and accurate. That is what I've been carrying in the gun for years.

[rodfac]

I carry .38 Special +P, 125 gr JHP's in my Smith M60 .357 Magnum. I consider the gun, even with its 3" bbl., a close in defense gun, i.e. under 10 yds...and don't feel the need for full house 125 gr .357 JHP's. I've shot them, and found the recoil heavy but acceptable, and the muzzle flash is considerable (hell, you could incinerate the BG's if you miss!). Shooting DA, at speed, and from under 10 yds, I can keep all five shots in a coffee cup sized group. It's enough for my purposes.

As to the .38 +P's, water expansion tests that I've done show more than enough bullet expansion to satisfy my curiosity and they're a bit easier to handle for repeat shots vs. the .357, and every bit as accurate.

Here's a pic of some .38 Special bullets recovered after being shot into water (a swimming pool in fact), as well as the actual velocities over my chrono. The gun was a ~2" bbl'd. Smith M37 in .38 Special. Water is not the ideal medium but does give a repeatable resistance to bullets of different makes as well as a comparison of relative expansion. The first one on the left (also shot into the pool) is a handload, with a tailored powder charge to give it similar recoil feel to our CC loads, and is used for practice. Note the lack of any expansion, whatsoever. For the curious, I carry the Remington Golden Saber round, and suspect that it's giving me 1000 fps from my 3" Model 60.

The 2nd pic shows the M60 and its predecessor, a Smith M36, both with 3" bbls. The 3rd is my wife's S&W 637 Airweight, the gun that shot the bullets in pic one It's dressed in pretty boot grips...that are virtually useless in our hands for controlling the gun in recoil. Of the three grips depicted, the fugly rubber ones are the most comfortable with +P loads. But the wood ones fit me best.

HTH's Rod