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Old April 24, 2017, 08:17 PM   #1
ken grant
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Defensive practice

Due to my old eyes (79) , shakey hands and not so good balance , I have changed my way of defensive practice and no longer use paper targets.

I scatter fired shot shells on the berm and shoot at them at different points from the hip up to chin level at 3-10 yds. after drawing and one hand only.
I hit a few , move a few , miss a lot but always close enough to defend myself from them.

YES , I do pick them up afterward and save them for the next time.
I mostly use my G19 and a lot of times with a AA .22 kit on it. The last two times I used it with the .22 kit.

I also use a Laser Cartridge around the house and draw to different things using the same draw and point shooting.
I have Glock type Gas Air Softs that I do the same in my yard and shop.

Last edited by ken grant; April 24, 2017 at 08:23 PM.
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Old April 24, 2017, 08:59 PM   #2
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If you're happy with your results I won't be critical.

I believe a repeatable two-handed grip from a comfortable and solid stance will give better results, old eyes, shakey hands and poor balance notwithstanding.

You might also consider some steel targets in place of paper or fired shot shells. You can then shoot at a more realistic sized target with immediate confirmation of a hit.

I admire that you are still working on maintaining your skills, even though things don't work as well as they used to. I'm a bit younger, but I can relate. Keep up the good work.
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Old April 25, 2017, 09:52 AM   #3
g.willikers
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Ken,
Kudos to you for continuing with practice.
What ever we old guys do helps for sure.
Shooting, exercise, all of it keeps us going.
Your shooting routine seems quite good to me.
Pretty much what I try to do, but with some longer distances.
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Old April 25, 2017, 10:59 AM   #4
Fogey
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I'm catching up to you in age. Fortunately I've a new set of eyes. Now if we can just get the Palsy to settle...

Admire your enthusiasm and fortitude. Plus a lot can be said for the 22 cal.
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Old April 25, 2017, 11:53 AM   #5
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To me there is a baseline - this is how good you would be if you never practiced.

There is also an upper limit - this is how good you would be if you practiced every waking moment.

None of us are getting to the upper limit. No matter how good we may think we are we are not there.

Anything over the baseline is better than the baseline. If you are comfortable with it then you are the one that matters.
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Old April 25, 2017, 12:48 PM   #6
OldMarksman
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Defensive practice should follow what was learned in defensive training.

There's a lot to it, but in simplest terms:
  • Draw, preferably after turning to face the attacker and while moving laterally
  • Fire several times as quckly as you can while keeping all shots in the upper chest area of an attacker

Try distances ranging from about seven feet to fifteen feet.
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Old April 26, 2017, 07:18 AM   #7
A J
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Most civilian gunfights are at very close distances, so being able to hit tin cans at 25 meters isn't really very important. If I were you, I'd just keep doing what you're doing. Shoot safe, shoot accurately and shoot short distances.
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Old April 26, 2017, 05:44 PM   #8
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i like that idea.
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Old April 28, 2017, 01:52 PM   #9
jackstrawIII
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Kudos to you for practicing what works for you. I should do more hip firing and one handed firing practice.

Good reminder, thanks for posting.
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Old April 28, 2017, 09:19 PM   #10
seeker_two
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Quote:
There's a lot to it, but in simplest terms:
Draw, preferably after turning to face the attacker and while moving laterally
Fire several times as quckly as you can while keeping all shots in the upper chest area of an attacker
I was a big proponent of this plan until I read about a shootout in Tyler TX. The good guy shot his 1911 dry in the perp's chest, not realizing that the perp wore body armor. The perp murdered the good guy as a result. Now, I practice a different tact.....if the first 2-3 shots don't show any effect, aim for something else. The ability to shift to different targets is an important skill. And Cooper's Mozambique and El Presidente drills are good for that.
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Old April 30, 2017, 02:12 PM   #11
Danoobie
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Take heart, Ken, remember the "Rule of Three":

MOST defensive encounters happen

1. Under three feet

2. Three shots or less are fired

3. It's over in 3 seconds

Bearing this in mind, speed is more of the essence,
as you are at basic "belly gun" range, anyway.
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Old April 30, 2017, 02:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
MOST defensive encounters happen

1. Under three feet

2. Three shots or less are fired

3. It's over in 3 seconds
Oft repeated, but I've never seen it attributed to a credible source.
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Old April 30, 2017, 02:23 PM   #13
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I believe the "credible source", here, is the FBI..
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Old April 30, 2017, 03:20 PM   #14
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Danoobie with no disrespect, your belief that it comes from the FBI doesn't make it so. If you have an FBI source, cite it.
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Old April 30, 2017, 09:28 PM   #15
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OH, you're hiring me? What's the benefit package?
Is the Health Insurance inclusive?
How's the pay?
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Old April 30, 2017, 10:22 PM   #16
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Danoobie the pay here is generally commensurate with experience and veracity. Making unsupported statements and passing them as fact does not look good on a resume.
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Old May 1, 2017, 01:32 AM   #17
Danoobie
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Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
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Old May 1, 2017, 03:16 AM   #18
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I have not shot a IDPA match since Dec 2015. A vehicle accident wrecked my Jeep. Now have a 2016 Jeep Cherokee.
My Glock 19 4th Gen, still feels like it is an extension of my arm!

Next time I go to my range, next week, a buddy and his Wife are spending a few days with me. So I will do some draw and fire exercises, and see how the 81 year old eyes work. My new left eye (cataract op) is 20/20, the right eye, 20/25 is the one I sight with. Both eyes open shooter.

Plus see if the new factory firing pin cures my light primer hits on my Steyr AUG.

I will return and pass on the results.
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Old May 1, 2017, 06:52 AM   #19
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I'll back Danoobie up, sort of.
I was told this same thing in class, although honestly I can't remember if it was feet or yards, I thought yards.. but what ever.. the point dirvin home at the time was that the avg SD shooting is very close.. well within the much cited 21 feet (7 yard) rule which I believe is the longer end of the spectrum for SD shootings and probably applies more to police shootings then civilian.

FBI DOES track shootings and I am pretty sure this is where the stat comes from.

Either way think about it, How do you in-vision your avg SD scenario?
Either someone comes up to you asking you for money or questions or what ever they're not gonna try to mug you from 20 feet.

Then you have the assault type situation where perhaps you're talking or arguing with someone and they decide to take it to the next level.. pulls a knife, gun, club, or just goes at you.. this is speaking distance just outside of touching distance usually.

How about a store robbery? How much distance is there across a counter top?
can't be much more then 4 or 5 feet.

A lot of times a predator is not gonna telegraph your their prey by pulling a weapon on you at range, IF you see them coming they're probably not gonna be aggressive till they're close that's why it's important to keep track of those around you.


I was witness to a shooting once, well actually not sure if that's right I heard the shots just didn't see it.
2 shots fired, *bang* *approx 1 second pause* *bang*
The 3 shot stat is often used to justify carrying a 5-6 shot revolver over a larger semi.

But of course in my above example only 2 shots but also it was 1on1
You'd need more for a group of BG's but you don't wanna be facing 3on1 at close range whether the BG's are armed or not.
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Old May 1, 2017, 08:21 AM   #20
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The two young Gang Banger's who traveled in the same isles as my Wife, in our local Publix. And followed her outside! Did not have a basket, or cart.

I was alerted to this, reading my book in the parking lot (hate shopping, love Cell phones) gave me the time to be a greeter, 7m from the electronic door.

My Wife came out, followed by these two young men. My Wife, as instructed, was traveling past our Jeep, down by the wall, and stored carts.

They spotted me, her two new friends, and ran to the street. (Did I mention I drive a marked Security Jeep?)

I strode the distance after we had loaded the food. Just about 7m!

It would have been loud! But no hands in pockets, no weapons seen. No shots fired. But just about 7m or 25 feet? Just perfect for a Glock 19.

Last edited by Brit; May 1, 2017 at 08:46 AM.
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Old May 1, 2017, 08:49 AM   #21
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Quote:
Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
Not trying to prove you wrong, but what happens if youre not right? Are you equally prepared for things beyond those limited parameters?

Hopefully, you practice a broad spectrum of things, from point blank to 50+ yards, and do so as realistically as possible. Reality (who happens to be directly related to Mr Murphy by the way) tends to bite people in the ass when they actually encounter it, and from what Ive seen at various ranges over the years, I think its safe to say, "most" are not even remotely prepared to deal with things, unless of course, they look like a bullseye target standing still at a fairly close range.

I always thought this "rule of three" thing was thought up by those who only carry a 5 shot J frame or one of the little .380's with no reload, to justify and feel good about their choice.
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Old May 1, 2017, 08:57 AM   #22
45_auto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danoobie
Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
Unfortunately for you, I, like K-Mac, prefer facts.

How's this work for you?

https://www.personaldefensenetwork.c...out-gunfights/

Quote:
WHAT DO FBI STATISTICS REALLY SAY ABOUT “GUNFIGHTS”?
By Claude Werner

Not as much as many people would lead us to believe. We frequently hear claims like: “Check out the stats, man, it’s always at 20 feet or less, and nearly always at 10 feet or less.” Or “that zero to three feet distance that most gunfights take place at in the real world.” Various figures are cited as the source for these contentions, most commonly “the FBI.”

Well, neither of those statements can be proven true based on the information supplied by “the FBI.” The available facts are actually a lot less conclusive than many people portray them as. Consequently, there is a great deal of unsupportable extrapolation of the facts that do exist.
Quote:
The purpose of this article is not to say that gunfights and shootings don’t take place at close range but rather that stating “the FBI” says they do is incorrect.
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Old May 1, 2017, 10:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
Not worth it.

It just doesn't make sense. Think about it. Three shots in three seconds at three feet? Shooting that slowly at someone who is virtually standing still at a distance close enough to slash your neck?

Come now!

In the standard Tueller drill, an assailant moves at an average speed of twenty one feet in a second and a half. Try it, or observe others.

Starting the draw at twenty one feet, a skilled defender just might get off his first shot at three feet, but he would probably have to move a bit.

It is unlikely that one shot would stop him immediately, so the defender would probably fire more than once.

But three shots in three seconds? The attacker would be about ten feet behind the defender when the third shot is fired.

Yes, most encounters occur at close range, but three feet is too close for comfort, if you can avoid it. And yes, not that averages matter a bit , three shots at close range may be reasonable. But one should probably try to shoot those three shots in about a second.

We've all heard it, sometimes with three feet, sometimes with three yards, but (1) averages really don't tell us anything, and (2) the source, though sometimes attributed to "the FBI", is something like that old "a highway patrolman told me...". Note: the FBI records distances for law enforcement shootings in which an officer is killed.

The Rangemaster stats from "Lessons in the Street" encompass just over sixty civilian defensive shootings. Distances range from contact distance (two incidents) to several dozen feet. 95% occurred at less than 7 yards; 93% at 3-7 yards; and 80% at 3-5 yards.

Hard to get average of one yard out of those data.

One cannot predict what will happen, but taking into account those data and the dynamics that would support a justifiable use of deadly force, it would probably be wise to concentrate most practice at ten to fifteen feet.
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Old May 1, 2017, 10:24 AM   #24
JoeSixpack
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I was told the same thing in my CHL class, No source was given by the instructor.

I was pretty sure the FBI was the source, but it looks like they only cover police shootings..
But like I mentioned in my post I suspect police shootings are longer range then typical civilian.

So in my mind I think we need a source for civilian SD shootings, to really settle this.

Let me know if ya'll find one cause the rule of 3 sounds pretty sound to me (on average) source or not.


EDIT:
Quote:
The Rangemaster stats from "Lessons in the Street" encompass just over sixty civilian defensive shootings. Distances range from contact distance (two incidents) to several dozen feet. 95% occurred at less than 7 yards; 93% at 3-7 yards; and 80% at 3-5 yards.
Sounds about right to me I can see that being legit.. I am pretty sure I heard the rule of 3 in yards, rather than feet but I can't recall now.

Last edited by JoeSixpack; May 1, 2017 at 10:48 AM.
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Old May 1, 2017, 10:36 AM   #25
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The main facts are this... We have no idea what distance we will be required to draw and fire a CCW pistol, at all!

So, a toe of a sneaker, sticking out 4" behind a corner of a dumpster? Some one fired at you, then dodged behind a dumpster?

Can you hit that toe from 20 yards? A carefully aimed shot, aiming just in front (ricochet hit?) terrible pain, collapse, holding foot?
You leg it, call 911. Then your Insurance against prosecution of just this kind, mine is in my IPhone.

One possibility, there must be thousands of them.
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