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Old March 16, 2017, 09:40 AM   #176
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fascinating thread. Love DIY projects, but I think I will pass on this one.

With a propane torch and a long 1/4 inch drive socket of the proper size chucked into a cordless drill I can anneal 50 cases in less than 30 minutes. The case spinning in the drill assures even heating and when the case neck glows I just tilt the drill to drop the case into the water

Of course I built a case dryer when the oven was working just fine to dry my cases so who am I to judge
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Old March 16, 2017, 11:00 AM   #177
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I'm always surprised, given the need to supply power to these simple oscillators abruptly enough to ring the tank circuit, that folks still use mechanical relays for it. Cheap high current P-channel MOSFETs can be had to do the job and electronic timers with high speed TTL compatible outputs are a dime a dozen. The schematic topography would be something like:

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Old March 16, 2017, 03:24 PM   #178
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Unclenick:
Quote:
I'm always surprised, given the need to supply power to these simple oscillators abruptly enough to ring the tank circuit, that folks still use mechanical relays for it. Cheap high current P-channel MOSFETs can be had to do the job and electronic timers with high speed TTL compatible outputs are a dime a dozen. The schematic topography would be something like:
While I agree with you 100% the use of relays and contactors does not really surprise me. My experience with these annealing units is that the guys making them are not for the most part engineering types but rather electronic hobby enthusiast. Logic Level gated MOSFETS are a great solution and have the fast turn on times required. While they can be connected in crude fashion to really incorporate them you need a board and heat sink.

While neither is difficult they make a relay with screw or lug terminals, like an automotive relay lucrative. Anyway, this would be my best guess as to why relays and contactors lead in the popularity roll. Pure speculation on my part. Heck, I would also consider the use of some uC units. Figure you can buy uC chips pretty inexpensive and they are not that difficult to program for timing functions. While I have never really played around with them a Rasberry Pi can be had for less than about $35 and could likely run all the control functions for an annealer. I really don't know.

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Old March 16, 2017, 05:11 PM   #179
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Not for this particular application, but I use a LOT of common relays in projects,
Common maintiance men can find a bad relay and replace it, no specalized test equipment or training required.

It's just too easy to add a LED to a relay to show when it's stopped working,
That makes it super easy for the guy doing maintiance to find the fault.

I can't imagine trying to keep up with a relay switching an induction circuit, the switching rate is so fast I can't imagine a relay would last long at all.
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Old March 17, 2017, 04:05 PM   #180
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Well, the relay function here and the circuit I drew are just for switching the power to the oscillator circuit to turn it on and off. I figure if we have an open source design, that will mean the circuit and its components and circuit board layout will all be part of the package that is maintained. Adding the MOSFET on/off switch to the board then becomes a trivial addition. A simple 555 circuit could be the control timer, unless it is felt that digital is a must.

But if the timing goes digital, or we talk about adding a BASIC Stamp or Arduino or Raspberry Pi piggy back board or some other added degree of sophistication, then the MOSFET opens up the possibility of power control by pulse width modulation. That would let us heat fast at high average current, then back the average current off to hold a temperature for some predetermined amount of time. There are some long wave IR camera modules now that could be used to indicate the case temperature and adjust the modulation accordingly. We can make this as simple or as complicated as we want to.
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Old March 17, 2017, 05:02 PM   #181
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Really and actually for what we are looking at doing a 555 is likely more than adequate. How much uncertainty is permissible to annealing a case neck? The more that goes in the more the cost goes up. I guess if the idea was to put something together keeping it reasonable in cost that a good part of the control could be placed on a single board? Makes sense. How much need is there for digital display of timing functions anyway? A 555 and a pot should work as a minimum just fine.

This is what it will always come back around to:
Quote:
We can make this as simple or as complicated as we want to.
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Old March 17, 2017, 06:22 PM   #182
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The relay/contactor used in the GinaErick annealer is not that expensive (about 9 bucks) through Amazon. Besides I just love the Clunk/clack as the annealer is operating in auto-cycle.
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Old March 17, 2017, 11:46 PM   #183
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I went with a digital readout timing premade circuit board, about $10 and is 1/10 second accurate with memory, has auto activate to start the timing cycle.
I simply put a micro switch on the shuttle solenoid so when the next case drops it starts the timer/annealer.
When the shuttle moves home it contacts the micro switch, starts one cycle, when the switch breaks the circuit the timer resets until the switch closes again.
Since the relays have NO and NC sides on the timer board when the cycle to mess out the relays kick the solenoid to drop the current case and that grabs the next case to hit the coil and start again.
For $10 it was the easiest/cheapest way I could come up with.
I bought extras at the same time so when one eventually fails I have spares, just don't popped them loose in the bottom of the case to keep track of them until they are needed.

My biggest expense so far has been the power supply(s) and I bought them surplus off eBay.
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Old March 18, 2017, 01:19 AM   #184
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JeepHammer... please don't take this the wrong way, after all I am the new girl on the block.

There are many ways to build a mouse trap, as there are ways to anneal brass. In reading this thread, about your annealer, I was unable to find any schematic, or build instructions on it.. It may be a really great one, that one could build at low cost, but until you add those items, one would never know.

The GinaErick was published for the whole community (schematic, parts list, parts suppliers, and instructions). Nothing was held back. Builders were free to take the idea, modify it, improve it, and make it better or cheaper.

I make no money on it, it's free to anyone that wants to build it. I'm sure there are things that could be done to reduce the cost. that is the whole idea of getting it out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57RL5v54FhM

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Old March 18, 2017, 08:31 AM   #185
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Gina, thank you guys again for sharing your drawing and parts list. I like the mouse trap analogy because that is what we have.

Me? I only run a few hundred cases through reloading at a time so really automation of case feed isn't a big deal. Guys like Jeep Hammer run large volume so for him full automation is important. Anyway, hanks again for sharing what you have come up with and how you went about it.

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Old March 18, 2017, 12:23 PM   #186
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Gina, please don't take this the wrong way...
Since out of all the people on this forum, out of the few of those that participate on the reloading section, and even fewer that have something constructive to input on this particular subject,
You selected me to single out...
I'm trying real hard not to take that personal...


1. I work a full time job as a mechanical design engineer & prototype builder,
I have a machine & welding shop of my own,
I design and sometimes build renewable energy systems,
And I also process between 250,000 & 500,000 Milbrass a month for direct sales.

I'm a busy person that posts at seriously odd hours of the day and night,
And nearly 100% of the time it's from a smart phone...
Now, it's really difficult to draw out either electrical schematics or mechanical or electrical diagrams on a smart phone,
In fact, from an iPhone 5, it's impossible.

2. There is a HUGE difference between an electrical schamatic, which takes a very specific education to understand,
And a working diagram that shows wiring and general components.
I'm not an electrical engineer, so I don't have a program that produces electrical schematic symbols like Unclenick posted above,
I would have to draw out all those little electrical schematic symbols in some kind of design program.

That takes an inordinate amount of time to do.

Now, considering it would take a trained electrical engineer, or a VERY talented armature to understand an actual electrical schematic, there are maybe two Orr three people on this thread that could make heads or tales of it.

There is no point in me wasting hours to a week drawing an electrical schematic that 0.01% of the general population would understand, and about 2 or 3 guys viewing this particular thread would understand (and those 2 or 3 are electrical engineers and could do it better anyway).

That's why I asked for a collaborative effort, the EEs could do the schematics in nothing flat and would be a better job than I would do,
While I'm fine with posting piscures of designs/mechanical explanations of what I did FOR CONSIDERATION, not forcing what I've done down anyone's throat.

Then there is the issue of pre-made components that are purchased,
How many people are going to blueprint that premade component and produce an electrical schematic for it?
(Someone with a LOT of spare time and very specific training...)

3. A 'Mechanical/Wiring diagram, by definition, is NOT an electrical schematic.
You would use an approximate image of the pre-made components and simply show wiring between the components.
You are still looking at about 5% of people looking at it that would understand it...

4. Now, this forum doesn't allow us to display pictures of the components we used or are looking at for fear of copyright issues,
SO,
We have to display links and *Hope* someone reading is inclined to go look at the picture, diagram, display or schematic.

There is nothing you can do about people that won't click on a link.

5. I'm NOT a photographer, it's not my chosen profession or hobby.
If the iPhone picture doesn't turn out, I'm probably not going to wast time or effort trying for better pictures unless someone asks directly for it, and then I may not have time.

I hope facts don't offend you or anyone else, This is just the way it is...
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Old March 18, 2017, 12:45 PM   #187
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As for 'Not Sharing'...

Lets try it this way,
Using Pyrex tube for case feeder instead of plastic tube,
eBay & Amazon sells Pyrex tube for cheap, and the heat rising off the cases doesn't degrade it like the polycarbonate tube sold with most case feeders does.

A suggestion for keeping the smaller cases centered in a coil capable of larger cases, a ceramic TIG welder gas cone,
Invisible to the magnetic fields, heat proof, inexpensive, available at any welding shop or off the usual online stores.

Now, I took these pictures, I own these pictures, it's my idea & equipment, and I posted these before, but I can take time & do it again...





Although it burns through my data plan, has me wading through the advertisements on photobucket, and generally takes up even more time, Ill post it again...

Also, notice the fiberglass wrap high temperature insulation on the coils.
Not my idea by a long shot, but a cheap, easy & effective way to keep brass from shorting across coils, or coils from shorting on each other.

The ceramic insert was aimed at folks doing one brass at a time, finger feeding, so the brass is centered in the a larger coil so it heats CONSISTANTLY all the way around.
It's just ONE idea that is simple & cheap, anyone can use it if they want to or have the need...

----

Now, when you crank out 250,000 to 500,000 a month, the processing, including annealing, gets a lot more advanced than dropping in one at a time.

Qualification is MIND NUMBING, and there is a very finite limit of how many cases you can physically handle & inspect in a day or weeks time.

This is part of a proprietary build, but I let this image out before,
And again, it's my idea, my build, my picture, so I can directly post it if I understand the forum rules correctly...



Case neck qualifier,
FOD check,
Primer pocket qualifier, including looking for ringers,
Annealing controller,

Not sure how many people will need to start at 3,000 an hour and do up to 30,000 an hour, but here is the 'Brains' capable of that quantity of production, capable of running up to 3 commercial processers at a time.
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Old March 19, 2017, 12:37 PM   #188
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Quote:
As for 'Not Sharing'...
Lets try it this way,
You should have your own website for all this stuff.
Then you could post a single simple link.

Quote:
Although it burns through my data plan, has me wading through the advertisements on photobucket, and generally takes up even more time, Ill post it again...
It doesn't help anyone else's either.
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Old March 19, 2017, 08:46 PM   #189
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I could be wrong, but I think I was the first on this forum to suggest ferrite cores...

So, I have issues with operating an iPhone and 'Snyper' thinks I'm going to learn HTML so I can build a web site?
And wasn't a collaboration the idea in the first place?
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Old March 19, 2017, 09:38 PM   #190
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No point in anyone getting their hackles up. All open sourcing is like this and involves different personalities with different ideas about how best to do things.
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Old March 20, 2017, 12:03 AM   #191
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Works for me.
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Old March 20, 2017, 08:02 AM   #192
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<Off Topic>
Quote:
I could be wrong, but I think I was the first on this forum to suggest ferrite cores...

So, I have issues with operating an iPhone and 'Snyper' thinks I'm going to learn HTML so I can build a web site?
And wasn't a collaboration the idea in the first place?
I believe you are correct as to the ferrite core. That said I really do not believe anyone has actually designed a website using HTML in decades. I believe web masters are pretty much all using what you see is what you get editor software.
</Off Topic>

Automation: How much automation should be considered? Automated case collator and case feed? People as myself have little to no need for automation while people like JeepHammer have a need. I process a few cases and Jeep a few thousand.

Timing: Should a timer have a digital display? How many timing functions do we want? Digital or just something simple less a numeric display?

If something like this were tossed out there as open source (which I really like).

Ron
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Old March 20, 2017, 01:51 PM   #193
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JeepHammer.

Sorry I got your hackles up. I reading your posts on this thread, much of what you posted was very interesting to me, just was interested in more information (schematics, parts, etc). Because of web site restrictions and your time, you were unable to list it.
My post was not meant to offend you.

Gina
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Old March 20, 2017, 03:28 PM   #194
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Gina, I can draw up a working diagram if you are interested,
I'm not inclined to draw schematics, particularly for premade/bought components. Just too much time tracking down the correct schematic symbols and re-drawing them to avoid copyright issues.

Layman's working diagram simply shows wiring between premade components, with or without specific part numbers of those premade components.
The premades have power hook up points, if it has switches, shows switching terminals, etc without having to draw out every component on the board in schematic detail.

For mechanical components, that can fairly easily be pictures. Not sure that's entirely nessary since most people know what a 'China' induction unit looks like and what a Dillon case feeder looks like.

The highest volume version of case processor is going to be proprietary, but we are talking about hobby reloading volumes anyway there isn't an issue there.

Just depends on what you want to see in specific...
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Old March 20, 2017, 05:16 PM   #195
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Quote:
Common maintiance men can find a bad relay and replace it, no specalized test equipment or training required.

It's just too easy to add a LED to a relay to show when it's stopped working,
That makes it super easy for the guy doing maintiance to find the fault.
While I do not consider myself a "common maintenance man" I do love those relays with the LED light. Its faster, plain and simple. Tell me where do I need to look next?

I also am pretty good electrically but this level is where my brother that served on a Nuke Sub comes in (Reactor Operator, basically a degree in nuclear physics and electronics with no humanities involved - I never saw an atomic particle or electron that read Shakespeare and wanted to talk about it )

Just as an aside, I finally saw a torch type annealer that met my criteria for accuracy. Rotating plate, two torches and the case spun when indexed into the torch position, it has a timer that was adjustable down to the 1/10 of second.

Only $550. Me thinks full electronics is still more better (torch heat consistency being an issue)

Now back to our regular programming.
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Old March 20, 2017, 05:49 PM   #196
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Relays with 'Noid' lights let you find failure FAST!
Light don't work, change relay and if it still doesn't work start looking into switching.
Keeps the maintiance guy that is shaky on 'Multi-meter' testing on the right track...

For stuff like solenoid switching it's hard to beat for quick diagnosis, since ANYONE can do it, especially the guys that won't read instructions and can't read a wiring diagram.

Latching relays also help in electro-mechanical timing,
Case shuttle for instance, switch on one end of shuttle stroke allowing case time to fall out, without timer,
When shuttle reaches full stroke another activation cuts off shuttle solenoid and sprig pressure closes trap door and kicks next case (if case feeder is used) into the annealer coil.

On a turntable type annealer a latching relay kicks annealer on when case enters ferrite or coil, timer kicks off annealer at predetermined timing.

The annealing process is fast enough most times the case on a turntable can keep moving during annealing process allowing you to keep the case moving, and that allows you to rotate the case during the annealing.
Motion is easily converted, if the case stays moving...

The *Easiest* auto feed annealer I've built was a turntable,
Cases can simply fall into revolving slots, no case shuttle needed,
Rotating cases in annealing field is as simple as a rubber band or rubber tubing on one side of the case bottom,
Cases can easily pass through coil/ferrite without extra guides,
And cases simply fall out the bottom when completed.

Falling into a rotating table, falling out the bottom is dirt simple and gravity never breaks down! Got to love dirt simple!
With a case feeder like Dillon, the bushings for any size cases are available off the shelf.
I like off the shelf parts! Makes building so much easier!

With case slots evenly spaced, your micro-switch that kicks annealing unit on/off can be at ANY station from loading station to dropout station.
Low voltage gear motors are all over the Internet for cheap, and it's pretty simple to match voltage of the motor to voltage of annealing unit so you only buy one power source unit...
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Old March 20, 2017, 07:31 PM   #197
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Quote:
So, I have issues with operating an iPhone and 'Snyper' thinks I'm going to learn HTML so I can build a web site?
And wasn't a collaboration the idea in the first place?
There are many sites that let you build your own website.
You don't have to learn anything new.
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Old March 21, 2017, 08:53 AM   #198
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I believe my limited 'spare' time is better spent trying out ferrite, Litz wire, etc.
Since you have to learn to do anything new, no matter what it is,
I think my time is better spent learning about something I'm interested in.

With the collection of crap around here, and as many ways as I've tried this particular subject, sooner or later I'll learn the missing piece.
That's why I suggested a collabration, since I'm bright enough to believe I know everything...
The electrical engineers can educate & direct the guys willing to spend money & time on the machine & the process, then the web site savvy can do a posting for everyone to use.
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