Mossberg vs Remington Pump Guns - Page 2

eastbank · February 14, 2019, 03:13 AM

we just do not see the mossbergs at the clay bird games. we have several men who have shot 870 shotguns here for over 40 years and have well over 50,000 rounds thru them with only minor replacement parts they replaces themselves. I have a 870 express in 20 ga that's 5-6 years old that is my knock around bad weather and lend field shotgun with no problems and it cost all of 149.00 on close out at Walmart.

Drm50 · February 14, 2019, 10:36 AM

Personally I don't like either. I have a 870 that I bought new in 1966. It still looks new because I never liked it. Having said that I sold guns for over 20yrs. Sold a ton of 870s and
had very few in for repairs. Biggest problem with them was loss of Barrel Nut and mag spring retainer. As for Moss, sold bunch of them also. Number 1 problem was the plastic tang safety. I usually talked customer into aftermarket metal replacement. NO. #2 was broken plastic trigger guard. It is apples & oranges but if I had to pick one it would be the
870 and not one of the low end models.

Waspinator · February 14, 2019, 10:50 AM

I chose the Mossberg purely for the control set-up. To me, the Mossberg safety location is easier to access and manipulate. Also, the slide release is so mush more natural , for me. I just raise my middle finger a bit and can activate it while still in a ready to shoot grip/finger positions. I felt that the Remington controls made me have to contort my firing hand unnecessarily to manipulate them.

I haven't had a problem with my Mossberg yet.

T. O'Heir · February 14, 2019, 02:15 PM

"...Ford vs Chevy argument..." Exactly.
The difference between an 870 and a 500 is $2(the 500's MSRP is that much more than an 870 Express.), if the 870 doesn't have 'Wingmaster' on it. You can pay about $400 more for the Remington if it has 'Wingmaster' on it. What the receiver is made of makes no difference.
Mind you, before Remington decided to have an entry level brand called 'Express' an 870 was an 870. 'Wingmaster' wasn't always a higher end shotgun. Mine wouldn't say 'Wingmaster' on if they were.

Roamin_Wade · February 15, 2019, 04:20 AM

T. O’Heir, roger that. The synthetic stock trend has created an okie-doke on what were ordinary guns. You want glossy? Sure, it’ll be 400 more dollars than it used to be...

Guggmeister · February 15, 2019, 07:33 AM

I prefer mossberg. Easier to load, better safety. Two extractors.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

eastbank · February 15, 2019, 02:20 PM

fourty years from now lay a 870 and a 500 on the table and ask your favorite grandson to pick one, I know as I did it and my grandson said give me your dad,s model 12.

dgludwig · February 15, 2019, 04:18 PM

Quote:

The BPS and M37 take their design influence from the Remington Model 17.

In terms of "design" as opposed to function, the Browning BPS has little in common with the Ithaca Model 37. In terms of function, both shotguns have bottom ejection but they get there in different ways.

Quote:

Mossberg design is borrowed from the Remington Model 31.

Other than both being pump shotguns, how so?

KnightofCydonia · February 15, 2019, 04:55 PM

Rem M17 - According to these guys the M17 lineage runs in the 870, 500, and Ithaca 37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIJWCbZ8Yw

Rem M31 - This guy thinks there's more influence on the M500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEkubBJHj2w&t=3s

For some reason I only enjoy pump action shotguns and their history, more so than semi-autos. I'm hoping to add a BPS to my collection soon to take a look at it. It has the smoothest action of the current offerings.

Drm50 · February 15, 2019, 07:59 PM

I'm with eastbank on this one. Has a smart grandson, wants the M12 Win. The Win 12, Rem 31 and Ith 37 aren't comparable with the stuff they put out now.

KnightofCydonia · February 16, 2019, 01:37 AM

How about those old Steven M77 pumps, High Standard, and S&W 3000?

Rob228 · February 16, 2019, 06:56 AM

I own three 870s, two of them pre 1980 and will likely be buying a 4th when I get back to the land of the big PX (always wanted a Marine Magnum, I think it is finally time). I've also carried a short PGO 590 on my back for knocking hinges off of doors and it never failed to do the job. Given a choice I'd buy an 870, but if I had to close my eyes and pick at random either will get the job done.

I also put more rounds through my Beretta A-400 in a year than I have through all of the 870s combined so there is some food for thought.

DPris · February 16, 2019, 01:32 PM

It was a shame when S&W dropped the 3000.
One of the best defensive pumps ever made.
Denis

dgludwig · February 16, 2019, 04:48 PM

Somewhere I still have a review of the Howa-made, Smith&Wesson Model 3000 pump shotgun, published in an le journal, comparing it with the very similar Remington Model 870; both having steel receivers and similar control functions and looking very much alike. As I recall, the reviewer reported that the Model 870, at least at one time, came with a known, if rare, malfunction potential (a shell falling back into the carrier, preventing the shotgun from cycling). The Model 3000's design supposedly prevented this unlikely but possible stoppage.

I had a Model 3000 for several years before selling it or trading if off; one of those decisions (among more than a couple) that I've come to regret.

Dfariswheel · February 17, 2019, 08:39 PM

For a time S&W sold the imported Model 3000.
This was when they were trying to take the entire law enforcement market.
They already owned the revolver market, and were introducing holster, handcuff, gas guns, ammunition, and thought they'd take Remington's huge market share of the police shotgun market.

Remington ate their lunch and soon after S&W dropped the shotgun and most of the rest to "Get back to our core market.... police revolvers".
The problem was, the 3000 was a nice gun but had nothing to offer over the 870 and too many people remembered the disastrous S&W Model 916, which was a version of the old Noble shotgun.
It's believed that the 916 was made for S&W by a contractor.
It was so bad, at one point S&W actually debated buying them back to salvage the hit on the S&W name caused by the 916.

Having been burned by Winchester with the 1200 and 1300 shotguns law enforcement simply stayed with the well proven 870.

After S&W dropped it, Mossberg picked up and marketed the Howa made 3000 for a couple of years, then when they too dropped it Howa imported it under their own name for a couple of years.
For a time the 3000 had a sort of cult following with individual police.

KnightofCydonia · February 18, 2019, 02:15 AM

Now for the origins of the High Standard Flite King

NWPilgrim · February 18, 2019, 10:08 AM

I have an old Mossberg 500A from the early 60s and a newer Mariner version, and an 870 Express all in 12 ga. None of them have ever failed shooting anything from target loads, field, buckshot or slugs. Well the older 500 did start to fail to extract after an all day shoot fest of about 400 shells without any cleaning. Carbon was building up in the extractors so once it was cleaned it was fine. I suspect the extractors are not as sharply notched after de added of use.

Personally I like the lighter weight of the 500. Much easier to carry in the field and the girls in the family prefer it on the shooting line. I can see in a department setting that a steel receiver may be better durability. But for a private citizen I think both are plenty durable and reliable and comes down to which fits better and handles better for you. The 870 has the advantage of having more accessories designed for it if that is needed.

Drm50 · February 18, 2019, 01:29 PM

Number #1 malfunction on 870s when I was in gun business was the shell jamming on the
carrier. Simple to clear by taking out mag spring retainer, spring and follower. Guys did this
in the field and lost a lot of mag spring retainers. Sometimes the other parts including the
barrel nut. This seemed to occur on new guns and I guess went away after broke in. I'm not
870 fan but don't have anything bad to say about them.

dgludwig · February 18, 2019, 06:02 PM

Quote:

For a time the 3000 had a sort of cult following with individual police.

And for good reason, at least for a time (minimally until Remington rectified the aforementioned design defect affecting at least some Model 870s during a certain unspecified time period).

FITASC · February 18, 2019, 08:33 PM

Quote:

I'm a lefty, much prefer the Mossberg because of the receiver safety. But having read through the other comments here, I will be checking into that reversible safety on the 870!

Personally, as a LH shooter, I always preferred the Ithaca or Browning......

Dfariswheel · February 18, 2019, 09:59 PM

The Remington 870 "design defect" was actually operator error.
If you failed to insert the shell ALL THE WAY into the magazine the shell could be pushed back out on top of the shell lifter and cause a stoppage.

The approved method of clearing this for the police was to bump the butt pad on the ground as you pulled on the forearm to force the action open.
This can happen with other brands of shotguns too, but since Remington was and is the prime shotgun maker of police guns, they fixed it.

Since it didn't make any difference that it was operator error to a cop in a bad place, Remington modified the shell lifter and bolt to allow opening the action by simply pulling harder on the forearm.
This is known as the "Flex Tab" system.
It can be recognized by a long "U" shaped cut in the bottom of the shell lifter.

Some people think that all that's needed to convert an older gun to the Flex Tab is to install a new shell lifter or trigger group, but the modified bolt is also needed to really work correctly.

jrothWA · February 19, 2019, 07:57 PM

Have a M500, Ithace M37 & WIn 97 and 12, but no Remingtons, 870 or 1100.
Like them all, but the M37's, [12, 16, 20,with the 16 getting outdoor most].

Friend took a swim with a 870 Express, and by time we got home the steel was rusting and the wood started swelling.

It's all personal preference.

darkgael · February 20, 2019, 07:22 AM

What don't you like about the M37?

bladesmith 1 · February 28, 2019, 03:18 PM

Shoot trap with one and you'll find out. I think Remington is the only one with so many trap gun models. Rudy Etchen, a by gone trap shooting great, shot a 100 straight in doubles 50 years apart with the same 870. He was ask when he was going to get a better trap gun. He said when he finds one he'd buy two, one for him and one for the guy asking the question. He would pull the gun back into his shoulder with the left hand so when the gun went off on the first bird he was already cocking it for the second shot. He couldn't do that with a model 12. He was just amazingly fast shooting two shots. In live pigeon shoots people would sometimes line up just to see him shoot because he was so fast. Goggle his name for a good read. Paul

stinkeypete · February 28, 2019, 10:29 PM

Another Model 37 fan. They still make them, but new are crazy expensive. Enough people don't know, so beautiful used Ithacas can be picked up for a song.

I like how they shuck the shell down, instead of off to the right, ricocheting off your buddy.

And lefties? Who cares if you are right or left handed. Down is down.

I have an old Wingmaster too, and it's also well loved. If I find an old mossberg, I guess I need it to complete the holy trinity.

February 14, 2019, 02:15 PM	#29
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Ford vs Chevy argument..." Exactly. The difference between an 870 and a 500 is $2(the 500's MSRP is that much more than an 870 Express.), if the 870 doesn't have 'Wingmaster' on it. You can pay about $400 more for the Remington if it has 'Wingmaster' on it. What the receiver is made of makes no difference. Mind you, before Remington decided to have an entry level brand called 'Express' an 870 was an 870. 'Wingmaster' wasn't always a higher end shotgun. Mine wouldn't say 'Wingmaster' on if they were. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 16, 2019, 04:48 PM	#39
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Somewhere I still have a review of the Howa-made, Smith&Wesson Model 3000 pump shotgun, published in an le journal, comparing it with the very similar Remington Model 870; both having steel receivers and similar control functions and looking very much alike. As I recall, the reviewer reported that the Model 870, at least at one time, came with a known, if rare, malfunction potential (a shell falling back into the carrier, preventing the shotgun from cycling). The Model 3000's design supposedly prevented this unlikely but possible stoppage. I had a Model 3000 for several years before selling it or trading if off; one of those decisions (among more than a couple) that I've come to regret. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

February 20, 2019, 07:22 AM	#48
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	What don't you like about the M37? __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

February 28, 2019, 03:18 PM	#49
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	Shoot trap with one and you'll find out. I think Remington is the only one with so many trap gun models. Rudy Etchen, a by gone trap shooting great, shot a 100 straight in doubles 50 years apart with the same 870. He was ask when he was going to get a better trap gun. He said when he finds one he'd buy two, one for him and one for the guy asking the question. He would pull the gun back into his shoulder with the left hand so when the gun went off on the first bird he was already cocking it for the second shot. He couldn't do that with a model 12. He was just amazingly fast shooting two shots. In live pigeon shoots people would sometimes line up just to see him shoot because he was so fast. Goggle his name for a good read. Paul Last edited by bladesmith 1; February 28, 2019 at 03:36 PM.

February 14, 2019, 03:13 AM	#26
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	we just do not see the mossbergs at the clay bird games. we have several men who have shot 870 shotguns here for over 40 years and have well over 50,000 rounds thru them with only minor replacement parts they replaces themselves. I have a 870 express in 20 ga that's 5-6 years old that is my knock around bad weather and lend field shotgun with no problems and it cost all of 149.00 on close out at Walmart.

February 14, 2019, 10:36 AM	#27
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	Personally I don't like either. I have a 870 that I bought new in 1966. It still looks new because I never liked it. Having said that I sold guns for over 20yrs. Sold a ton of 870s and had very few in for repairs. Biggest problem with them was loss of Barrel Nut and mag spring retainer. As for Moss, sold bunch of them also. Number 1 problem was the plastic tang safety. I usually talked customer into aftermarket metal replacement. NO. #2 was broken plastic trigger guard. It is apples & oranges but if I had to pick one it would be the 870 and not one of the low end models.

February 14, 2019, 10:50 AM	#28
Waspinator Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2013 Location: Connecticut Posts: 517	I chose the Mossberg purely for the control set-up. To me, the Mossberg safety location is easier to access and manipulate. Also, the slide release is so mush more natural , for me. I just raise my middle finger a bit and can activate it while still in a ready to shoot grip/finger positions. I felt that the Remington controls made me have to contort my firing hand unnecessarily to manipulate them. I haven't had a problem with my Mossberg yet.

February 15, 2019, 04:20 AM	#30
Roamin_Wade Junior member Join Date: July 11, 2018 Location: Baytown, TX Posts: 220	T. O’Heir, roger that. The synthetic stock trend has created an okie-doke on what were ordinary guns. You want glossy? Sure, it’ll be 400 more dollars than it used to be...

February 15, 2019, 07:33 AM	#31
Guggmeister Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2013 Posts: 117	I prefer mossberg. Easier to load, better safety. Two extractors. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

February 15, 2019, 02:20 PM	#32
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	fourty years from now lay a 870 and a 500 on the table and ask your favorite grandson to pick one, I know as I did it and my grandson said give me your dad,s model 12.

February 15, 2019, 04:55 PM	#34
KnightofCydonia Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 219	Rem M17 - According to these guys the M17 lineage runs in the 870, 500, and Ithaca 37 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIJWCbZ8Yw Rem M31 - This guy thinks there's more influence on the M500 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEkubBJHj2w&t=3s For some reason I only enjoy pump action shotguns and their history, more so than semi-autos. I'm hoping to add a BPS to my collection soon to take a look at it. It has the smoothest action of the current offerings.

February 15, 2019, 07:59 PM	#35
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	I'm with eastbank on this one. Has a smart grandson, wants the M12 Win. The Win 12, Rem 31 and Ith 37 aren't comparable with the stuff they put out now.

February 16, 2019, 01:37 AM	#36
KnightofCydonia Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 219	How about those old Steven M77 pumps, High Standard, and S&W 3000?

February 16, 2019, 06:56 AM	#37
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	I own three 870s, two of them pre 1980 and will likely be buying a 4th when I get back to the land of the big PX (always wanted a Marine Magnum, I think it is finally time). I've also carried a short PGO 590 on my back for knocking hinges off of doors and it never failed to do the job. Given a choice I'd buy an 870, but if I had to close my eyes and pick at random either will get the job done. I also put more rounds through my Beretta A-400 in a year than I have through all of the 870s combined so there is some food for thought.

February 16, 2019, 01:32 PM	#38
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	It was a shame when S&W dropped the 3000. One of the best defensive pumps ever made. Denis

February 17, 2019, 08:39 PM	#40
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	For a time S&W sold the imported Model 3000. This was when they were trying to take the entire law enforcement market. They already owned the revolver market, and were introducing holster, handcuff, gas guns, ammunition, and thought they'd take Remington's huge market share of the police shotgun market. Remington ate their lunch and soon after S&W dropped the shotgun and most of the rest to "Get back to our core market.... police revolvers". The problem was, the 3000 was a nice gun but had nothing to offer over the 870 and too many people remembered the disastrous S&W Model 916, which was a version of the old Noble shotgun. It's believed that the 916 was made for S&W by a contractor. It was so bad, at one point S&W actually debated buying them back to salvage the hit on the S&W name caused by the 916. Having been burned by Winchester with the 1200 and 1300 shotguns law enforcement simply stayed with the well proven 870. After S&W dropped it, Mossberg picked up and marketed the Howa made 3000 for a couple of years, then when they too dropped it Howa imported it under their own name for a couple of years. For a time the 3000 had a sort of cult following with individual police.

February 18, 2019, 02:15 AM	#41
KnightofCydonia Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 219	Now for the origins of the High Standard Flite King

February 18, 2019, 10:08 AM	#42
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	I have an old Mossberg 500A from the early 60s and a newer Mariner version, and an 870 Express all in 12 ga. None of them have ever failed shooting anything from target loads, field, buckshot or slugs. Well the older 500 did start to fail to extract after an all day shoot fest of about 400 shells without any cleaning. Carbon was building up in the extractors so once it was cleaned it was fine. I suspect the extractors are not as sharply notched after de added of use. Personally I like the lighter weight of the 500. Much easier to carry in the field and the girls in the family prefer it on the shooting line. I can see in a department setting that a steel receiver may be better durability. But for a private citizen I think both are plenty durable and reliable and comes down to which fits better and handles better for you. The 870 has the advantage of having more accessories designed for it if that is needed.

February 18, 2019, 01:29 PM	#43
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	Number #1 malfunction on 870s when I was in gun business was the shell jamming on the carrier. Simple to clear by taking out mag spring retainer, spring and follower. Guys did this in the field and lost a lot of mag spring retainers. Sometimes the other parts including the barrel nut. This seemed to occur on new guns and I guess went away after broke in. I'm not 870 fan but don't have anything bad to say about them.

February 18, 2019, 09:59 PM	#46
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The Remington 870 "design defect" was actually operator error. If you failed to insert the shell ALL THE WAY into the magazine the shell could be pushed back out on top of the shell lifter and cause a stoppage. The approved method of clearing this for the police was to bump the butt pad on the ground as you pulled on the forearm to force the action open. This can happen with other brands of shotguns too, but since Remington was and is the prime shotgun maker of police guns, they fixed it. Since it didn't make any difference that it was operator error to a cop in a bad place, Remington modified the shell lifter and bolt to allow opening the action by simply pulling harder on the forearm. This is known as the "Flex Tab" system. It can be recognized by a long "U" shaped cut in the bottom of the shell lifter. Some people think that all that's needed to convert an older gun to the Flex Tab is to install a new shell lifter or trigger group, but the modified bolt is also needed to really work correctly.

February 19, 2019, 07:57 PM	#47
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Have a M500, Ithace M37 & WIn 97 and 12, but no Remingtons, 870 or 1100. Like them all, but the M37's, [12, 16, 20,with the 16 getting outdoor most]. Friend took a swim with a 870 Express, and by time we got home the steel was rusting and the wood started swelling. It's all personal preference.

February 28, 2019, 10:29 PM	#50
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	Another Model 37 fan. They still make them, but new are crazy expensive. Enough people don't know, so beautiful used Ithacas can be picked up for a song. I like how they shuck the shell down, instead of off to the right, ricocheting off your buddy. And lefties? Who cares if you are right or left handed. Down is down. I have an old Wingmaster too, and it's also well loved. If I find an old mossberg, I guess I need it to complete the holy trinity.