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Old August 18, 2018, 12:05 AM   #51
ninosdemente
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So I received the gauge today and checked all 60 rounds I made and they all fit. I actually expected them to be worse from the pictures attached.

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/43.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/44.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/45.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/46.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/47.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/48.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/49.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/50.jpg
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:12 AM   #52
ninosdemente
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603Country, unfortunately I am scarcely limited to friends who own firearms let alone who reload. Not even family have firearms only myself and two brothers and they don't reload. Basically I am the first one trying to reload.
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:20 AM   #53
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I agree.

Quote:
I started using Hornady XTP's instead of plated round nose. The XTP's seem to suffer from the ogive issue that some here have mentioned (I'm no ogive expert), but since I wasn't loading to max, I was comfortable seating them a little deeper until they chambered. All was good again after that.

The XTP bullets seem to be just a smidge wider closer to the tip, which apparently was causing them to hit the lands when seated at the published OAL.
I like XTP bullets, with the scored jacket at the tip, they mushroom dramatically when fired into mud. They are Flying Ashtrays. But "ogive" seems to always be different for Hornady.

Another thing that can help is Slotted Case Gauges. They have a 45 degree cutout of everything away from the rim. In this case a slotted gauge would give you a very clear view, and the possibility to use a feeler, or micrometer the "fit" and "no go". Sheridan engineering makes them:
http://sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm

I have and like my Savage Rifles very much. In 223 I have a heavy barrel Model 10 that wont load anything longer than 2.255 (with typical bullets). I have an Edge (old name for Axis, but their was a copyright issue with Ford who make an Edge motor vehicle) that has a noticable longer chamber and throats and can by loaded longer for use in that gun only.
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Last edited by Marco Califo; August 19, 2018 at 01:19 PM.
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Old August 18, 2018, 12:34 AM   #54
ninosdemente
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HiBC,

Here are some pictures of the test you suggested. Hopefully I tested it correctly.

The first two pictures are from two factory bought ammo, Remington. Those two did chamber in the rifle. The next three are the one's I seated deeper. I also checked the other cartridges made that don't chamber and are not seated deeper are giving me .2460" and .2465".

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/51.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/52.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/53.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/54.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/55.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/56.jpg
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Old August 18, 2018, 01:11 AM   #55
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Thanks for the link Marco. Interesting piece,that's for sure.
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Old August 18, 2018, 04:21 AM   #56
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the gauge pictures still look to me like you haven't resized them right. A few look well outside the tolerances. The shoulder or base may be hitting.

Last edited by ncrypt; August 18, 2018 at 04:27 AM.
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Old August 18, 2018, 07:14 AM   #57
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ninodimente: We have a terminology problem.I asked for diameters at the shoulder.You are giving me diameters at the neck.
Maybe you could look in a reloading manual .

I want the diameter over the fat part of the case,but right at the sharp corner of the shoulder.I want to compare the ones that chamber easily before you seat the bullets to the cases after you seat the bullets.

My hypothesis is that you will find the diameter over the shoulder is larger after you seat the bullets.If it is,we have probably solved your problem.

Its already been explained a few times. I'll explain it again about setting the bullet seating die properly after you measure.

A very common rookie mistake is to screw the seating die into the press till it contacts the shellholder. With most seater dies,thats wrong.

The die has a built in crimp function.Too much! And the crimp has no place to go. If this is the problem,you are crushing your ammo lengthwise just a bit.

This shows up as an increase of diameter at the shoulder,because,as it collapses,it cantilevers outward.

I'd explain the scuffing as eccentricity.

If you do not measure shoulder expansion,well,its something else.
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Old August 18, 2018, 08:10 AM   #58
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1. Execute the BREAK BREAK measurement. Tell us the difference between the cleaning rod marks. (hopefully more than 2.25")
2. Assuming you get 2.25"++, back the seating off the ram one full turn, seat the bullet to 2.25", and tell us the results.


.

Last edited by mehavey; August 18, 2018 at 08:41 AM.
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Old August 18, 2018, 08:23 AM   #59
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The OP, once this issue is solved, HAS to tell us what the answer was. I have to know....
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Old August 18, 2018, 08:45 AM   #60
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Check the diameter of the bullet just above the case neck to see if it possibility my have bulged from seating . My mistake in thinking of seating , I have been seating with the Redding Competition Seating Die for so long I forgot the built-in crimp on standard dies . Your full length and trimmed case chambers fine so that part of your reloading is correct , with the seating die your using can you adjust the die to eliminate any crimp and seat the bullet lower until it chambers ?
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Old August 18, 2018, 09:31 AM   #61
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And then there is another gage called the chamber gage, I have no problem using a spare barrel or a cut off barrel that has been reamed to the correct chamber.

And then there is the straight edge that is used with a feeler gage or a flat surface that us used with the feeler gage.

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Old August 18, 2018, 09:57 AM   #62
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Quote:
Its already been explained a few times. I'll explain it again about setting the bullet seating die properly after you measure.
Ir first seat the bullet and then adjust the die to crimp, but first back the seater plug off. After adjusting the die to crimp readjust the seater plug.

It all goes beck to the reloader thinking he can bump the shoulder back and or move the shoulder back; for years and years I have insisted it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full length case support. AND NOW? I am convinced it is almost impossible for reloaders to keep up with all of the scuttle details of reloading.

Crimping requires the slightest hint of effort. A few manufacturers of dies and reloading manuals have suggest crimping and seating is a bad habit, the first one suggested more bad can happen than good. In the beginning they suggested crimping could have an adverse effect on bullet hold. Reloaders changed bullet hold to tensions because tension sounded catchy.

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Old August 18, 2018, 10:43 AM   #63
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Per post #57 you have over crimped which causes the shoulder to buckle and expand. Simply back off the seating die a half turn and seat a new case and bullet.
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Old August 18, 2018, 11:16 AM   #64
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Quote:
Per post #57 you have over crimped which causes the shoulder to buckle and expand. Simply back off the seating die a half turn and seat a new case and bullet.
Crimping instructions come with the seating die that crimps. First back the die off and then start seating' to the correct length. "AND THEN" back the seater plug out, after backing the seater plug out adjust the die to crimp then secure the die to the press with the lock ring. After locking the die to the press with the lock ring lower the seating plug until it contacts the bullet and then STOP! Secure the seater plug with the lock nut to the top of the die.

Or; do not crimp, just use bullet hold, if bullet hold is not available?

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Old August 18, 2018, 11:17 AM   #65
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Hopefully now I measured correctly:

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/57.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/58.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/59.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/60.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/61.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/62.jpg

I don't have unseated brass as I did all 60 when I made this batch. Just going off the bought ammo and what I have already made (1st 3 pictures). Not sure if this would help or I must make a few brass? The next two are after re seating. But the last picture is the round when it was first seated and hasn't been re seated. But gives higher diameter. I measured the other groups at random and also gives me measurement of .3580"-.3590". Shouldn't it be the opposite where as seated again, from what you said would increase the diameter?
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Old August 18, 2018, 11:54 AM   #66
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Reloaders as a group does not have an affinity to the datum; The datum makes life and reloading so easy and simple.

Again, I use take off barrels, I cut up barrels to make chamber gages, I use new barrels, my barrels are full of datums and I have reamers lots of reamers and I have access to 250+ reamers. And I am not the fan of crimping bottle neck cases.

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Old August 18, 2018, 12:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
I don't have unseated brass as I did all 60 when I made this batch.
When you started the cases worked, I have always suggested a reloader save a few new, store bought, factory loaded rounds for comparison.

And then the case appears to whip the press when it refused to be sized. When that happens I always want to know 'by how much'; I am also the fan of the feeler gage, When sizing a case and the cases refuses to be sized I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder.

There was a time the standard remedy for the 'difigulity' of sizing the case was to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to refuse being sized. There are some reloaders that continue the practice and some have purchased Redding shell holders, others have purchases SKIP's shims. ME? I am the fan of the feeler gage, anything a reloaders can accomplish by grinding, special shell holders and or shims from SKIP I can accomplish with a feeler gage.

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Old August 18, 2018, 03:37 PM   #68
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Ninos
Since all your cases are loaded, you next need a bullet puller to disasemble some loaded rounds and resize the cases to restore the shoulder to its original condition.
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Old August 18, 2018, 03:53 PM   #69
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I see Mr Guffy decided to show up.
OP, do whatever makes you happy.

But I suggest ignoring distraction for now. Focus.

1) Your resized brass chambered easily.Thats important. Your problem is not in the sizing die or operation. Your rifle chamber,as a gauge,proved that.

Putting powder in the case did not change anything,unless maybe you have powder in the case neck. Over compressing powder can be an issue.

2)Remember,the brass fit till now. SEATING The seater die body is a slip fit on the cartridge case. Brass should fall in,and fall out..It just holds and supports the brass for seating.It does not reform the brass.

Seating should not change the brass that easily chambered.

Except for one thing. The seating die will crimp the neck into the bullet.

And new reloaders don't think of that. So,instead of reading and following the die instructions,they intuitively screw the die body into the press till it contacts the shellholder.Bingo. Crushed case. But the eyes don't see it.

Next,they write a post in TFL "My .223/5.56 ammo won't chamber...."

Then people go back to talking about sizing and gauges and headspace. Mr Guffy shows up and tals about old milsurprifles with excessive headspace,he's the only reloader,and he has a quick draw feeler gauge.

All in the world I asked for is a measurement over the shoulder before and after you seated bullets. You can substitute a factory load or any flipping piece of 223 brass that will easily chamber.

I don't see why its so hard.

I believe the bullet scuffing was a red herring.IMO,collapsing the shoulder made the ammo eccentric. The bullet is off center.

I also believe something else.

3) My theory could be WRONG!! I'm OK with that. I'm happy to eliminate it as a possibility. Truth,not ego. That's why I asked for a measurement FIRST,

Last edited by Unclenick; August 18, 2018 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Removing snark
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Old August 18, 2018, 04:17 PM   #70
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Could well be, but I doubt the OP has a concentricity gauge for the test.

Ninodesmente,

The easiest way to check this is to take a big Magic Marker and just coat a whole cartridge with it. Try to chamber it, then withdraw it. Wherever it is hanging up, there should be rub marks. That's way easier than all the measuring and its attendant potential for errors if you aren't used to machine shop procedures.

Per an earlier comment, when you took photos of the Wilson gauge, what was needed was a profile shot so readers could see if the case was proud of the higher step. The head of the case should be between the two level at the back. If you lay a ruler flat against the higher step, it should not touch the case. If it does, the case is inadequately resized. But since you chambered the cases before you loaded them, I seriously doubt that is a problem.
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Old August 18, 2018, 10:24 PM   #71
F. Guffey
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from page one:

Quote:
First mistake?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
When powder was added and bullet seated, the OAL came to at 2.2585"-2.2595". Now my first mistake was not chambering the 1st group I made. All of them fall at/below 2.2595".

I will disagree; the first mistake is not knowing the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. After that there is room for another mistake; A reloader can size the case and without a bullet and powder attempt to close the bolt. If the bolt closed the case has enough clearance to allow the bolt to close and the case is not bulged. The bulge in the case requires the case to be sized when the bolt closes.

And then there is the problem with crimping and seating. If the reloader does not understand crimping only requires a hint of effort he can create a bulge at the case body shoulder juncture/

F. Guffey

Quote:
I see Mr Guffy decided to show up.
OP, do whatever makes you happy.
Thank you.
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Old August 18, 2018, 10:46 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
I see Mr Guffy decided to show up.
OP, do whatever makes you happy.

But I suggest ignoring distraction for now. Focus.

1) Your resized brass chambered easily.Thats important. Your problem is not in the sizing die or operation. Your rifle chamber,as a gauge,proved that.

Putting powder in the case did not change anything,unless maybe you have powder in the case neck. Over compressing powder can be an issue.

2)Remember,the brass fit till now. SEATING The seater die body is a slip fit on the cartridge case. Brass should fall in,and fall out..It just holds and supports the brass for seating.It does not reform the brass.

Seating should not change the brass that easily chambered.

Except for one thing. The seating die will crimp the neck into the bullet.

And new reloaders don't think of that. So,instead of reading and following the die instructions,they intuitively screw the die body into the press till it contacts the shellholder.Bingo. Crushed case. But the eyes don't see it.

Next,they write a post in TFL "My .223/5.56 ammo won't chamber...."

Then people go back to talking about sizing and gauges and headspace. Mr Guffy shows up and tals about old milsurprifles with excessive headspace,he's the only reloader,and he has a quick draw feeler gauge.

All in the world I asked for is a measurement over the shoulder before and after you seated bullets. You can substitute a factory load or any flipping piece of 223 brass that will easily chamber.

I don't see why its so hard.

I believe the bullet scuffing was a red herring.IMO,collapsing the shoulder made the ammo eccentric. The bullet is off center.

I also believe something else.

3) My theory could be WRONG!! I'm OK with that. I'm happy to eliminate it as a possibility. Truth,not ego. That's why I asked for a measurement FIRST,
I'm with this. Although some of the symptoms are those of work hardened brass, improper sizing actually makes more sense. I also agree with the scuffing theory It makes the most sense since it's an odd looking scuff.

I'm a little sensitive when it comes to work hardened brass since I just dealt with it so I probably jumped on that bandwagon prematurely.
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Old August 19, 2018, 07:14 AM   #73
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In short engineering instruction:

1. Determine overall length option by doing the bare-bullet/cleaning rod test on Post #28. If over 2.250", proceed to step 2.

2. Do what ever you have to do to get an empty case. Buy one, pull one, pick up one... your choice.

3. Full length resize the case after screwing die down to ram -- plus ⅛ turn to minimize springback. Lock the die.

4. Screw the seating die down to ram, then back off at least one full turn to get away from crimp shelf . Lock the die.

5. With empty case, seat the bullet to 2.250.

Don't measure, gauge, anneal, or otherwise fiddle with anything at this point.
Just tell us if it chambers easily .
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Old August 19, 2018, 09:26 AM   #74
F. Guffey
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Quote:
4. Screw the seating die down to ram, then back off at least one full turn to get away from crimp shelf . Lock the die.
I am not a fan of putting a new reloader into a dead run; if the crimp die crimps what is wrong with knowing where the crimp is located? And no, I do not expect an answer.

I suggest the reloader place a case into the shell holder and then raise the ram. After raising the ram I suggest the reloader adjust the die down to the case until he feels the die contact the case. Once the seating die that also crimps is adjusted down to the case the reloader can back the die off to prevent crimping.

Dillon and Lyman said crimping bottle neck cases is a bad habit especially when seating the bullet at the same time. Now I understand that is a mechanical problem: meaning, when the crimp is applied the bullet is being seated. With anything more than the hint of a crimp the bullet is moving down while the crimp is being applied. When the crimp latches onto the bullet the neck bulges and moves down. Back to the seating die does not have case body support: When the neck is shoved back the shoulder/case body juncture expands/bulges.

I know; reloaders learn nothing from this, reloaders insist they can move the shoulder back and they invented a new term with a blind of an old term called bump/ They bump, I can't because I find it impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full length body support. The shoulder can be moved back with a seating die because it does not have case body support. And I understand there is a company that is making dies that support the case body. And they think they are the first

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Old August 19, 2018, 09:52 AM   #75
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Instruction #4: Modified

4(M). With seating die backed waaaay off, run an empty case/ram fully up into it. Screw die down until it contacts the case mouth. Back off 1-turn and lock it down.
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