Annealing, Grain Structure

[hounddawg]

Fair enough Bobcat. Just my opinion here but I just think most brass failures have to do with improperly set up sizing dies than the lack of annealing. Never had a neck split myself, only had 2 instances of neck separation back when I first started reloading bottleneck cases. The kind of separation you don't notice till you see the neck is missing when you pick the case up.

edit - all I am saying is that for the last year give or take I have been annealing religiously. I am pretty sure this is the thread that started me on my path to precision loading and improving my shooting technique and getting more involved in competition. My ammo has improved tremendously as far as velocity consistency but I found minimal if any benefit annealing added. I see much more improvement in my SD, ES and grouping from a number of other things. Powder choice and load, proper seating depth and low neck run out all have had more recognizable benefits than annealing has. I do own and use the Annealeeze though and since it is paid for and all it costs me is a bit of propane to use I will continue. If it died tomorrow I would not be in a rush to replace it until I need to replace brass and maybe not then.

[JeepHammer]

I thought it was tremendously helpful!
It let me see first hand the different grain/chrystal structures of different makers, and if you were paying attention, it also showed current production head thickness, web contour, cut or punched primer pocket contours, etc.

It's an accumulated knowledge thing for me, now I have scientifically prepared samples with excellent pictures to compare what I see here against! It lets me actually see where things are changing and/or going right/wrong.

I guess if someone is never going to do sectioning/inspection under magnification, it wouldn't particularly matter, but to me it lets me see where I screwed the pooch, and when I guess correctly without spending a crap load of cash to have specimens prepared and photographed.

I'm stupid happy with the results and have it saved to my 'Forever' file, and printed high res hard copies for my brass book!

[Metal god]

If you look at any reloading forum you case find scads of opinions on the benefits of annealing your cases. But they are just that opinions, nothing scientific just hand me down wisdom and hearsay. The blogs and magazines have tests that will tell you that such and such machine or tool will get your cases hot but have no info on what affect they had on the cases when actually fired. What I want to see is the shooting bench range testing of annealed versus non annealed cases over the couse of multiple firings and the affect on velocity consistency and case life.

all I am saying is that for the last year give or take I have been annealing religiously. I am pretty sure this is the thread that started me on my path to precision loading and improving my shooting technique and getting more involved in competition. My ammo has improved tremendously as far as velocity consistency but I found minimal if any benefit annealing added. I see much more improvement in my SD, ES and grouping from a number of other things. Powder choice and load, proper seating depth and low neck run out all have had more recognizable benefits than annealing has.

Before tar and feathering me

Sorry but here it goes

How can you say the first quote then come back with the second quote claiming you know annealing does less for you then other reloading practices ???? So you have done what you want to know from the first quote ???? OR you can't claim you know other things are better ????

Please tell me how you know bullet runout creates more consistency rather then the annealing it self allowing you to easily get a more consistent bullet run out ???? Have you tested annealing every firing and bullet runout and compare it to that same number of firings but no annealing and how much more consistent your bullet run out is or is not ??? Now this is just theory but I'd assume an annealed neck would be much easier to consistently size then a 10 time fired work hardened one . I anneal every 4th or 5th firing and my cases size WAY easier right after annealing then they do for the 5th firing . Again I'm assuming but it seems reasonable that the easier to size case will have less spring back resulting in a more consistently sized case . Which in turn allows all the other things to be more consistent . That is assuming your equipment is capable of the consistency needed to tell the differences .

I've run test that shows how I hold the rifle effects the SD from the mid teens to 5fps . I worked on all kinds a crap trying to reduce my ES/SD before It was suggested it may actually be my shooting technique . Turns out it was , I was gripping the rifle to tight .

Maybe you have run each test by only changing one thing at a time and testing it multiple times to confirm before moving on to the next thing . I personally don't have the time or the money for the components needed to run that many test . Even if I did I figure by the time I've tested everything the barrel would be shot out and I'd have to start over .

Ok there's the tar , I got the feathers waiting

[hounddawg]

Sorry but here it goes

How can you say the first quote then come back with the second quote claiming you know annealing does less for you then other reloading practices ???? So you have done what you want to know from the first quote ???? OR you can't claim you know other things are better ????

the simple answer is my testing has been limited and not measured using high end custom rifles shot by a really good shooter using the most accurate test equipment. The problem is I do not have the time or resources to conduct extensive and thorough testing the way Litz does. In his annealing tests he took 30 unfired cases used the exact same case prep and divided them into 3 groups. One set of ten he annealed before each reload, the second he annealed before the 6th reload and the third group he annealed after every firing. After ten reloads he found no difference whatsoever in the three batches. His testing was limited to .223 and .308 and he called the .308 invalid because he used the wrong setting on his AMP for the .308s

In my test I used only two groups of ten and only made it to three reloadings before I got the two groups mixed up in the cleaning phase. For those three cycles though the SD's were similar if not identical. I am also using a CE chronograph and would have more faith in a Labradar or CED Millennium chrono.

I did similar tests on a more limited basis on neck tension, neck lubes, rounds prepared identically but half of which had runouts less than .001 against others with 002 and up, rounds neck sized only with a Lee collet against a RCBS FL die vs Redding bushing dies with and w/o the expansion button and various bushing sizes. I also tried out various wet and dry neck lubes and found while they make bullet seating smoother I saw no difference in velocity at the shooting bench.

Again nothing as extensive or indepth as Litz's testing but it has enabled me to fine tune my loading technique down to where I can get SD's in the low to mid single digits with ES's around 15 to 20 FPS consistently and ten shot groups at 300+ well below 1 MOA as long as I am doing my part with technique.

The biggest factor for small groups I have found is seating depth. Three to five thousandths can make a difference between a 1.5 MOA group and a .5 MOA group. That applies at all distances from 100 to 800.

For velocity consistency I have found that the proper powder and load affects velocity the most. I now look for temperature stable powders that can give me a consistent velocity over a three to five tenth grain spreads. That way if the temp is 40 degrees or 95 degrees or the load is + or - .1 gn the velocity will be stable.

I have came to those conclusions by testing where just over the last year or so where I test fired appx 1500 to 2000 rounds playing with bullets, powder and seating depths. You can probably double that number for rounds shot in pratice and competition. For 8 months last year I chroned most every practice and development shot. I have pics and documentation with info for all the things that worked and a lot that did not. The things that did not work you just remember such as my great neck lube experiment. I tried four or five different methods with no statistically significant changes with or without

Here are a few targets I shot in the last week at 300 doing seating depth testing on some new bullets I am trying out. No charge testing has been done on any of the bullets, I simply used the same powder and load that worked well with 77gn non tipped SMK's and 140 gn Nosler CC's. Next week I will set up my chrono and see if these loads will work at 500 yards plus with some powder charge testing now that I have the optimum seating depths identified

https://imgur.com/a/S8v81EO

I know these are not benchrest quality groups but keep in mind that these were shot using home grown rifles shot based on Savage 10 actions from a bag and a bipod shot by a guy who only decided to get serious about shooting long range a year ago. I am no Brain Litz or Erik Cortina so I would not consider myself anything special but I have always worked as a techie so analysis is something I am used to

nothing fancy was done to any of the cases No neck turning or neck reaming or moly coating of bullets etc etc. As I said before I will continue to anneal simply because I have the Annealeez sitting on my bench and it only eats a few cents worth of propane each week.

I am still on the fence on whether it helps but I know it is not hurting. I think of it the same way as I think of my good luck hat which is nothing more than a old worn out NRA ball cap which I wear at every range session. I did let the wife wash it once after it crawled off by itself one day.

I am still open minded about annealing and I would love to see a good indepth test by someone who really knows their stuff. Iam looking forward to Litz completing his testing in his next Modern Advancements book, soon as it is released I will be downloading the Kindle edition.

edit - My opinions on annealing only apply to the average reloader who simply FL resizes , not those who are doing major case forming or reforming such as necking down, wildcatting, or case manufacture where major changes in the brass are being applied.



Oh and no need to be sorry , questioning is good thing and you were polite in the way you did it. Nothing at all to be sorry about

[JeepHammer]

Implying that no one here has any idea what they are doing...

Even though people here can build the annealer from scratch, tune it to a specific brass, do hardness testing & micrographs to SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE what's going on with the brass,...

And after insulting, berating & dismissing everyone that's tried to educate him, he's worried about manners...

[hounddawg]

I suppose asking for statistical proof or a semi scientific study of equipment that being sold for hundreds of dollars is being rude then yes I am one rude bastard.

Metal God asked how I came to my opinions so I answered his question, no insults intended toward anyone. Notice I always present opinions, never do I state them as facts. Facts require proof and I have never seen any proof that annealing helps with either case life or accuracy

I am not much of a politician I guess, but I can live with that

hamburger ground from sacred cow has been a steady diet for me

[Metal god]

hounddawg: You pretty much said what I was expecting base on other things you've posted in the past . I figured you had done a lot of the testing already and came to those conclusions under real shooting testing . Your types of test are not to unlike mine and I came to the those same conclusion . Which is "FOR ME" annealing every time is not going to help at all and even if it did I'd likely not see it based on my equipment and shooting ability . IMHO the shooter and equipment needs to be capable of 1/4 moa consistently to really start being able to know if this or that really helped or have kept all there targets and notes over the years to analyze . I've personally excepted 1/2 moa 5 shot group at 300yds is about as good as it gets for me using front and rear bag on a bench .

I only anneal for extended case life right now . I may some day play with it more but for now once every 4th or 5th firing seems to be all I need . I have considered reducing that to every third firing though . I believe when sizing on the 5th firing at times it seems I can feel the spring back of the case more then the first or second sizing . That could be in my head though

EDIT , you posted as I was writing

Metal God asked how I came to my opinions so I answered his question, no insults intended toward anyone.

None was taken , you have to be pretty aggressive for me to take offense and I don't think the mods here will ever let you get there for me to get to butt hurt . I'm a pretty easy going guy , It takes a good bit to get my panties in a bunch .

[hounddawg]

glad you feel that way

once my boss told his supervisor who was down from corporate to never to ask me any question unless he really wanted to know what I thought. That was after the supe had asked me what I thought of some new company policies and I gave him an earfull of how I thought they sucked and the guy who thought them up was a idiot. They were the supes pet ideas. I did not get fired but I probably should have been. Personally I thought I deserved a raise for being honest

. I've personally excepted 1/2 moa 5 shot group at 300yds is about as good as it gets for me using front and rear bag on a bench

same here but I console myself knowing that a centered 1 MOA group is a clean target in F class but shooting at a club where a you need at least a 590 to get into the top 5 it makes you push yourself and dishes out regular doses of humble pie. Shot 97% once and ended up in 7th place. Made a bad wind call next match and had a gorgeous sub MOA group with perfect vertical but centered on the 8 and 9 ring for a 165 score. It's all fun though, finished the match with a pair of 194's and next to last place
\
apologies for the ninja edit , 1 too many beers

[Metal god]

Personally I thought I deserved a raise for being honest

Hmm , I think most employees feel this way . The hardest thing I had to learn/get over was micro managing my employees . Took maybe 15+ years to figure that out . It's when there eyes start to glaze over , you've lost them

[JeepHammer]

Micro-managers, the reason workplace violence happens...

Here is the material, here is the tooling, there are the machines.
If there is any part of this job you DO NOT know, come get me.
Don't improvise. It's not your money you will be wasting with your improvisation.

Stress, what happens when some idiot with a collage degree crashes the spindle into the table of a brand new, first time powered up CNC machine and causes $40,000 worth of damage to machine & tooling.

Seems common sense isn't taught in collage, no idea a locator program existed.
The 'Old School' guy gets to clean up the mess, get the machine fixed, and has to teach the arrogant young idiots the most basic things... Don't lick live wires, don't stick your head in the toilet, no watches, rings, long sleeves or long hair around the machines, safety glasses on in the machine areas at all times-no exceptions EVER, don't eat lead paint, keep that pistol out of your mouth, if it's glowing red- don't touch it, if it's smoking don't touch it, don't poke yourself in the eye with a screwdriver, don't hold the work piece you are drilling through in your hand,
Apparently, these are things NOT taught by parents or schools...

Anger, comes from a week's worth of work on a piece and it doesn't fit the customers application...
He says, "That's what I wrote, but that's not what I intended to write, and I'm not paying for it."
(My response, I'm on the phone to every local machine shop before he's out the driveway, so good luck getting anyone else to make a run at it in 100 mile radius, and I keep piece & drawing for the small claims case I'm filing the next trip to town, he singed off on the work order and drawing, I learned that one the hard way)

Diplomacy, that's me explaining (for the 3rd time) that because you used a 9/16" wrench to take the bolt out doesn't mean it's a 9/16" bolt... When what I actually want to do is put them in a choke hold & bang them in the head with a bag full of 9/16" bolts & 9/16" wrenches until they smarten up and listen...

I liked the good old days when you could just fire an idiot employee or throw out an idiot customer.
Those days are long past since we have to deal with 'Cheap' employees instead of experienced employees, no one keeps the old problem solver/history bank around anymore that's been there since the corner stone for the pyramids was laid, and no one starts sweeping floors and works their way up.

[Metal god]

Micro-managers, the reason workplace violence happens...

lol yep , thank god i’m 6’3” and 275lbs . My size ( pretty much my whole life ) has been a nice deterrent in my favor .

[RC20]

Apparently, these are things NOT taught by parents or schools...

On a philosophical note, most of the hard sciences (manual work of one sort or another) is a combination of OJT and talk.

Read a study that said work conversations are one of the best learning tools.

You cant teach it, you have to live it. We really don't live it anymore. That sort of thing came out of farms and such. Ours was a bit different but closer to farm work, fishing is a great teacher as well.

I learned about rings at age 17 when I tried to rip my finger off via a thwart bolt (surveying oddly enough) and a high school ring.

I talked to too many men over the years that had lost or seen lost fingers stripped off by rings (or burned off on crossing hots and or hot and ground)

When I got married I told my wife that I would not wear a wedding ring at work (I have one, I do wear it on vacation etc).

I would go with a woven one, wooden one (reluctant) preferred wold be a tattoo. She grew up on a farm and understood, we just went with trust.

Not that you are going to find much chance for romance in a mechanical room mind you. And if I was interested in that route I would not have gotten married anyway.

[hounddawg]

wayy off topic but what the heck

When I was in HS I took a machine shop course for three hours each day for three years. I think it was in my second year a kid was wearing his HS ring and a spinning chuck on a South Bend tool lathe sangged it. He did not lose the finger but it skinned that finger back like you would a rabbit halfway down.

After that I always wore my HS and then my wedding ring on a chain around my neck and if I wore a watch it had plastic or rubber cases and straps when working with open electrical panels

[RC20]

I did pipeline construction and talked to several guys that had see people come down off a loader and such that did just that.

I turned a digital watch into a pocket watch, never had anything metal on my hands at all.

Now you can get electrical insulated screwdrivers, mine just have electrical tape on them.