Crimping and loading for accuracy

[Brian Pfleuger]

I really have no cat in the fight over crimping. I'm just pointing out the likely fallacies and explanations. Take it or leave it.

And I'll keep shooting my uncrimped, unjammed in the rifling ammo in off the shelf, sporting rifles (Rugers even) into sub-0.5 MOA groups too.

[steve4102]

And I'll keep shooting my uncrimped, unjammed in the rifling ammo in off the shelf, sporting rifles (Rugers even) into sub-0.5 MOA groups too

Even Ruger, semi-autos or bolt action? All my tests and targets were directed towards semi-autos.

I crimp all my semi-autos even my Ruger Mini-30, but I can't do .5, I can't even to 1.0 with my Mini. It shoots good, but not that good.

100 yards
20 rounds
Crimped.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Nah, my guns are all bolts. Them semis are for guys that can't hit the first time. <donning flame suit>

I'm kidding! Geez! I'm kidding!

[marine6680]

Personal experience is heavily, heavily over-rated. Individual people are heavily influenced by any number of logical fallacies and biases, besides the fact that our experiments are almost never large enough to eliminate variables and smooth statistical irregularities. Confirmation bias, experience bias, Texas Sharpshooter fallacies, any or all and more could apply to this situation.

Now you are speaking my language. Science!

As far as masking issues... It is possible. The top shooters spend the money on top quality components, sort carefully, and pay attention to factors that most hand loaders do not.

Crimping for the average hand loader can cover up factors like weak or inconsistent neck tension... less than ideal powder charge weight... or powder choice... less than consistent brass... trim length... seating depth... many variables. Some may not be practical to test/check for the average hand loader, so crimping could help for them.

Maybe one day I will get anal about my loads to that point, but I have not the need or that level of skill... I can shoot Sub MOA only from a steady rest and by putting a good bit of effort into it, and I am not consistent with it. I can do MOA to 1.5 MOA consistently when I am actually shooting for best accuracy. I have never really shot match ammo, maybe I could do a little better with an accurate load if I did. I'm just not big into shooting for groups/absolute accuracy much... I do it a little on a range trip to force myself to use fundamentals closely, as they are important to reinforce, and I do like doing it in small amounts.

I'm more interested for my fiance, as she wants to try it. Right now the ammo isn't the limiting factor, its her skill level. 5-6 MOA at best right now, but as her skill improves, she will need ammo that can represent the group she is shooting... limiting the variable from the ammo as best as possible. And I need to start learning to load more accurate loads now, so I can be in practice when she is ready.

[4runnerman]

As far as masking issues... It is possible. The top shooters spend the money on top quality components, sort carefully, and pay attention to factors that most hand loaders do not.

Crimping for the average hand loader can cover up factors like weak or inconsistent neck tension... less than ideal powder charge weight... or powder choice... less than consistent brass... trim length... seating depth... many variables. Some may not be practical to test/check for the average hand loader, so crimping could help for them.

Marine- All this is very true,But--I do not know any hand loaders that do not do everything you have posted , other than neck tension, And I am sure many do that too. Trim length, powder charge,seating depth and powder choice is something everyone does whether you are a bench shooter or a plinker. That is the reason you got into hand loading,to make a better load. Hand loading is not something that your once a year deer hunter does. He can buy a box of shells and be good for the next 5 years. The way I see it - A hand loader is one of 2 people
1- shoots a lot and wants to offset cost
2- A person going for extreme accuracy
In both cases I see that person as someone that wants his bullet to go were he wants it to. Example- When I first started loading 223, It was like all else, 10 different powders,20 different bullets in weights and brand names, and 5 different primers. I would always load in groups of 20 or more. Many of them did not shoot as good as I was wanting. I hate tearing them apart ( boring), so I just threw them off to the side. A year later friend buys a 223 ( non hand loader ). Say's- I will take all those rounds you have sitting there. I said- They don't shoot for squat, He say's- I don't care I just plink????. My thought is- Even if all you do is plink- Don't you still want to hit what your plinking at?. unless your idea of accuracy is a bowling ball at 100 yards. If your answer is NO- Then just buy a cap gun that makes noise it will be cheaper and you can do it at home. When you first started loading-Why did you do it?. Like most,it was probably to make a better ,more accurate load for your rifle.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by marine6680

I'm more interested for my fiance, as she wants to try it. Right now the ammo isn't the limiting factor, its her skill level. 5-6 MOA at best right now, but as her skill improves, she will need ammo that can represent the group she is shooting... limiting the variable from the ammo as best as possible. And I need to start learning to load more accurate loads now, so I can be in practice when she is ready.

When my boys were little we did a lot of shooting and a lot of learning. Their biggest problem was "flinching". It was hard for a 10 year old to hold steady and squeeze. I don't know you or your girl friend, but I would bet that the infamous "flinch" is part of her problem.

One of the things I did to fix the flinching issue was pretty simple.
I would load up a couple dummy rounds, no primer and no powder, just a sized case and a seated bullet.

I would load the magazine for them and I would insert one or two of these dummy rounds, maybe. They did not know where it was or if it was. It's a real eye opener to the shooter when they pull that trigger with nothing but a click. If flinching is there, both you and she will know it. I still do this to them and they still do this to me. Works great for handgun practice as well.

[Bart B.]

Flinching? Reminds me of the day I had a bunch of new shooters on the 600 y are line and one of them had just been issued a new 7.62 match conditioned Garand. He could barely keep his shots in the 36" black bullseye. I layed down beside him, had him aim and hold the rifle but without his finger on the trigger. He held his breath while holding and I pinched the trigger off using my thumb behind the trigger guard and forefinger in the trigger. We shot ten rounds that way; they all went into the 12 inch 10 ring with his holding and my trigger pulling. Worst thing for me was I'd never shot ten rounds in a row in the ten ring at 600 yards before; 9 was my best 10-shot string shooting on my own.

Uncrimped ammo in semiautos. . . Note all the best scores in service rifle matches shooting both 30 and 22 caliber semiauto ones since the 1950's have all been done with ammo holding uncrimped bullets. I had to chamber 42 rounds in a 7.62 Garand one morning to get 22 of them fired in a match. The ammo didn't have powder in 20 of them. Measuring the head-to-bullet/ogive on those that didn't fire and comparing them to unfired ones showed the dimension across all was in a .002" spread about the same average number. Pretty much showed me the bullets didn't slip forward from chambering. Release force on new rounds' 190-gr. bullets was about 15 pounds.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Note all the best scores in service rifle matches shooting both 30 and 22 caliber semiauto ones since the 1950's have all been done with ammo holding uncrimped bullets.

How do you know this? Do they require all ammo in Matches to be inspected before they are allowed to shoot? Just askin.

If not, how do you know nobody crimped, did you personally inspect all this ammo?

[Bart B.]

Steve, in a lot of them, they all had to shoot issued match ammo made in arsenals and no modification of the ammo was allowed. And all the one's I've talked and shot with shooting that well don't crimp their bullets in place. I've been one of them myself. Nor do the military shops handloading ammo for them crimp bullets into place and such ammo's set a lot of recent records.

These rifles shoot no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100 yards and no worse than 2/3 MOA at 600 yards with uncrimped ammo. Yes, semiauto rifles in M1, M14/M1A and M16 platform types will do that. It takes one that shoots that well to see the real problems crimped in bullets cause. Otherwise, the problem will be masked by some other part of the system.

If you want more details, find out who they are from the NRA's web site pages listing the record holders and match winners, then contact them asking how many crimp bullets in cases. Check out the same thing for folks shooting bolt guns. Then check out the benchrest discipline web sites for their record holders and do the same thing. They're all knowledgeable enough to know crimping impairs accuracy.

Best wishes in finding one, just one who shoots the best results that crimps their bullets, then let the rest of us know who it is. I did such a search a few years ago and nobody crimped their bullets shooting the best in competition.

Period.

[marine6680]

There is a difference between ammo that goes where you want and ammo that is loaded for the utmost in accuracy.

Most of my shooting is for fun. So long as my rounds are reasonably accurate and not inconsistent... Then I am happy. Accuracy in line with basic ball/FMJ ammo basically.

There is no need for me to Taylor the load to my rifle specifically, I load to a general standard that works well in both of my rifles. There are many things I don't need to worry about... Like neck concentricy, sorted bullets and brass by weight (headstand and firing number yes), distance to the rifling , and many other factors.

Top shooters are willing to spend the time and money on equipment and components needed to address several variables that I am not... Like ensuring perfect concentric case necks and thickness.

I am also new to reloading, so it's safe to assume that I won't be the best at selecting the Best powder or charge weight.

There is also a difference between those that are unhappy with any load that won't shoot MOA or better... And those that just want to hit the target and have fun.

Not everyone has the skill or desire to create the ultimate load... I want basic loads... And the ability to make a decent load for accuracy, (with those loads made for only one Rifle, my fiances) but I am not willing to go to the lengths some will go... At least not yet, as I have no need or skill set to do so.

I will try many things and see what works best for me, my rifle and my skills. That's what it boils down to.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Steve, in a lot of them, they all had to shoot issued match ammo made in arsenals and no modification of the ammo was allowed.

Well, don't that beat all? Claiming that un-crimped ammo wins every match, when the only ammo allowed was un-crimped. Now that's sum funny stuff right there. You just can't make this stuff up.

Originally Posted by Bart B.

And all the one's I've talked and shot with shooting that well don't crimp their bullets in place.

Those that you have talked to? Your said every best score ever!

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Note all the best scores in service rifle matches shooting both 30 and 22 caliber semiauto ones since the 1950's have all been done with ammo holding uncrimped bullets.

Which is it every score ever, or just the guys you have talked to?

Asking the winners of a shooting match for their "recipe" is A-Kin to asking the winner of a Barbecue contest to reveal the winning sauce recipe. Funny stuff there Bart, funny stuff.

[totalloser]

Taking a firm stance on either side seems sort of misleading from my perspective. If loading PURELY for accuracy, the game is different than if loading for volume and adding an operation that takes no more time, but sometimes helps accuracy, and often helps reliability/safety.

I'm sure I could weigh all my cases and not crimp, and load to the lands giving better accuracy. But the accuracy gained in my *mini 14* would not be anywhere remotely near worth the hassle. In a good pass I can roll out 1000 rounds in an hour tumbled brass to finished cartridge including trimming every case, there is no WAY I'm wasting my time sorting head stamps. Adding a crimp DID appear to help accuracy for my application. I won't be winning any matches, but I wouldn't have anyway, and this added operation takes ZERO more time to do.

I really don't think the answer to the crimp/no crimp question has the potential to be a one size fits all approach.

But a generality that might sum it up well is if you load volume for gas guns with less than tightest controls, a crimp may help. If you are looking for sub moa, a crimp probably isn't the best approach.

[Bart B.]

Steve, I'm gonna laugh for a year after you didn't seem to see that I'd said in some matces they had to use issued non-crimped ammo and in the same post state that when they handloaded ammo to use in other matches it wasn't crimped.

Steve, in a lot of them, they all had to shoot issued match ammo made in arsenals and no modification of the ammo was allowed. And all the one's I've talked and shot with shooting that well don't crimp their bullets in place. I've been one of them myself. Nor do the military shops handloading ammo for them crimp bullets into place and such ammo's set a lot of recent records.

I know you're stuck on crimping for best accuracy, but until you can find someone who's done well in competition to back up your position, you're not going to have a good argument in favor of it. While duffers may well see it shoot better in so-so accurate rifles and shooting methods, it's not done in best accuracy situations.

Regarding "Those that you have talked to? Your said every best score ever!" Yes, all the scores at the Nationals and Interservice matches winning and record setting since the '50's have been set with out crimped bullets in centerfire rifle cartridges, both in bolt guns and semiauto service rifles. Find out who those folks are then ask them yourself if you don't believe me. Do some background checks on them, too. In dining with these folks and at other social occasions, the subject of crimping bullets oft times has come up. It gets a lot of laughs.

And about "Which is it every score ever, or just the guys you have talked to?"

Both.

Regarding "Asking the winners of a shooting match for their "recipe" is A-Kin to asking the winner of a Barbecue contest to reveal the winning sauce recipe." Now you've uncovered your ignorance. Allow me to make you a bit smarter. For what it's worth, the folks winning and setting records in high power match competition are more than willing to share loads with anyone who politely asks them. I did that when I first started shooting and became good friends with a lot of them. Sharing the loads is part of that discipline; there are no secrets. How to build accurate rifles is also another subject that's spread around.

Until you spend some time in these circles, you won't ever understand.

[4runnerman]

Regarding "Asking the winners of a shooting match for their "recipe" is A-Kin to asking the winner of a Barbecue contest to reveal the winning sauce recipe." Now you've uncovered your ignorance. Allow me to make you a bit smarter. For what it's worth, the folks winning and setting records in high power match competition are more than willing to share loads with anyone who politely asks them. I did that when I first started shooting and became good friends with a lot of them. Sharing the loads is part of that discipline; there are no secrets. How to build accurate rifles is also another subject that's spread around.

Until you spend some time in these circles, you won't ever understand.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^--This is Very Very true. These are some of the nicest guys and gals you will ever meet. They will take all the time you want to help you. This is have expirenced myself

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by 4runnerman

These are some of the nicest guys and gals you will ever meet.

Nice guys finish last.

[marine6680]

Now I just stop in for the show...

[Slamfire]

Bart B has been amazingly patient and polite in this discussion. Discussions such as this are why so many of the champions of the sport refuse to become involved in pointless forum discussions.

[totalloser]

I'll agree that Bart has exercised patience, but promoting match accuracy as the hands down standard is misleading. And *not true* in all applications. All this talk about military applications... well last I checked non-match military ammo has a crimped mouth. In this particular application where multiple headstamps, multiple manufacturers, powder and bullet batches, will be fed through multiple rifles, the crimp probably helps accuracy, among other things.

I don't disagree that *maximum* accuracy usually to almost always will be better attained without a crimp. BUT with .223 the vaaaaast majority of ammo will be processed for volume over *maximum* accuracy. Which means that a significant amount of shooters will benefit from using this process. And again, it ain't the end of the world if folks try it and it doesn't work out with their particular rifle/load. Dismissing the process as ineffective in general is a disservice to volume reloaders IMO.

[Bart B.]

Total, military ammo for service and combat purposes has crimped in bullets to keep them in place when all sorts of hard, physical impacting environments are encountered. Especially to let a dud be easily ejected from a barrel and bring the bullet out with the case. Keeping them in place while belted and magazined ammo's slammed around against all sorts of hard surfaces with great gusto's got to let that bullet stay in place and keep it reliably shootable.

I could go on and on in this disertation, but if you don't already understand by now how important it is that precision accuracy's not the objective with service ammo in combat situations, 'twould be a waste of my time to further explain the details.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by totalloser

And again, it ain't the end of the world if folks try it and it doesn't work out with their particular rifle/load. Dismissing the process as ineffective in general is a disservice to volume reloaders IMO.

Shoulda warned ya, you were waiting you breath.

All this negativity from a guy that has Never used the Lee Factory Crimp die. Never, but sure has a lot to say bout it don't he.

[totalloser]

Good for a chuckle, I guess. Being talked down to like that you'd think he knew my experience level and that I am unaware of what a crimp does.

It appears that Bart is attempting to claim that a crimp will never improve accuracy but won't come out and actually say it. I wouldn't either, since there are plenty of folks that have had good luck with the process- especially for the applications I highlighted. That appearance is IMO what stretched out the discussion.

I just feel compelled to offset this standpoint because I don't think it's always true. In bolt gun calibers it would be vastly true, but in .223 I think it's mostly not, or at least significantly not due to the general use of .223- mostly gas guns, and mostly volume reloading.

But here's another generality that might help: If you are sorting head stamps and weighing every charge for accuracy, you probably are at the point a crimp will only help reliability/safety, and may be detrimental to accuracy.

[Bart B.]

Totalloser, I've oft times said, both in print on these threads, those of other forums as well in voice and on other hard-copy documents; in so many words. . ...

Crimping case mouths onto/into bullets will help accuracy if they mask and/or correct some other thing that, if not done the way it was, would have improved it in the first place. If it makes your stuff the most accurate, then by all means do it.

Now its in print again.

Your remark: "But here's another generality that might help: If you are sorting head stamps and weighing every charge for accuracy, you probably are at the point a crimp will only help reliability/safety, and may be detrimental to accuracy." is a good one.

Steve, sit down, brace your self and read patiently:

Some folks know enough to figure out that with their component set and how they're assembled and shot, that crimping will hurt accuracy. So they've no reason to try it. Others who have shared their knowledge with us and we've decided not to go down that path.

I'm not shouting at you, but put those key words emphasized so you could easily get them the first time through. To me, you're worth making it easy to understand quickly.

[4runnerman]

totalloser-Sorry you feel you are being talked down to. I think the point he is trying to make is that un crimped ammo is more accurate than crimped. That is a fact that is not arguable. Now if Crimping is working better for you and your results are such,then no one can argue that with you. Also-If you are happy with that and (as he says) do not want to explore why crimping is more accurate in your rifle,That is also fine with us all. I think this forum is a wealth of info and sometimes we ( me included) have our ways of doing things and we get hung up with that way.

Steve4102- I have done both ( crimped and un crimped) in both 308 and 223. I shot my 308 in FTR Class, and believe me I did a lot of testing both ways. In the end once again Un crimped was more consistant and accurate.

I will not stand here and say you are wrong. It works for you and some others and I believe this to be true for you.

[steve4102]

otalloser-Sorry you feel you are being talked down to. I think the point he is trying to make is that un crimped ammo is more accurate than crimped. That is a fact that is not arguable.

Explain this.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

In fact with these test results, the "fact" is crimped rounds are arguably indeed More accurate. Irrefutable, bullets to paper, not theory or opinion, just real life test results.

[4runnerman]

Intresting Read Steve. Now the question comes to mind and forfront. Do we go with what this guy said?. Or do we go with 5000 plus bench,F-Class and so shooters?. I do not want to detract from your post. Makes even me wonder. Great job looking that up.