escalation of force

snoman · November 16, 1998, 12:02 PM

I carry a H&K .45, 26" asp, Def Tech foam mace, UTL, surefire 6r, and a Taurus PT111 in a B.U.G. holster on my stabpro 2 vest. The boss lets me carry them but does not like it.? My reasoning for it is there are times when shooting someone is just not justified. I was hoping for some useful arguments to bring to him and "bring change"
Snoman...

Rob Pincus · November 16, 1998, 01:02 PM

Sorry, Sno, which is it that the boss doesn't like you carrying?

BTW, I think this is relevant to your post:

THP was just ordered to remove the pepper spray from their duty belts because of a news story which had "medical evidence" that pepper spray could kill.
Now, there is HUGE gap in the normal escalation of force policy for that department. What would've been clear cut times for using the spray will now have to be dealt with either by baton or firearm.

------------------
-Essayons

snoman · November 16, 1998, 10:59 PM

Rob, every thing but the gun. He even hates the idea of two extra mags!!! Go figure??
I don't think they have a use of force policy.

[This message has been edited by snoman (edited 11-16-98).]

[This message has been edited by snoman (edited 11-16-98).]

Rob Pincus · November 16, 1998, 11:18 PM

Okay, I had to check you profile to see what business you were in. I assume that you are referring to your Armored car driving job. (which is no job I would ever want, BTW)

Given that your most likely to be attacked only by people who really think about how to attack you in your role as an A.C. driver, I think your boss is, technically.... loopy.

In your other job, F.R., I would guess that you can carry whatever you want, but are more restricted by concealment concerns. Hopefully you use you pepper spray to your advantage in that job.

Anyway, your boss maybe concerned about your appearance to the clients, who don't want Rambo showing up walking through their places of business. Well, to them I say: "Fine, handle your own pick ups and wear whatever you want."
I can't believe that he fails to see that you will look more professional the more you look like you know what you are doing. Police Officers are (usually) perceived by the public to have a clue and they wear the full load on their duty belts. If you have a professional looking duty belt and wear your gear properly, I can't figure what his problem is. Now, that said, some states are tricky about being "authorized" to use blunt weapons and spray. Is it possible that your license or his insurance does not cover pepper spray and/or the ASP?

Either way, that has nothing to do with the extra mags, etc.

Do you work in teams or alone?

------------------
-Essayons

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 11-17-98).]

**4V50 Gary** · November 17, 1998, 09:33 AM

Concerning deaths attributable to OC, there are more documented cases related to mace than OC. The argument about pepper spray induced death continues and is largely tied to the so called positional asphyxia which los medicos are still arguing about.

Snoman, advise your boss that the more equipment you've got, the more options you exercise. It's one thing to shout, "Back off M-F" and quite another to shoot. At least with the OC & impact weapon, you've got options between running and shooting.

That's why a lot of departments want their officers to carry impact weapons and OC. It gives them alternatives to deadly force and an edge over bare handed brawling.

If all comes to worse, explain that force is that which is reasonable under the circumstance. If he takes away your equipment, then he's creating greater liability for both you and the employer.

Harry Humphries · November 17, 1998, 12:07 PM

Snoman, I concur with Rob's advice, given what information he has gleaned. But you should remember to balance - you know, too mush speed, not enough accuracy, too much power, etc.. In your case Too much gear, not enough decision capability or mobility. Keep it simple but maintain the capability to use less lethal force if the situation does not warrant lethal force escalation. ( i.e ASP Baton, Chemical irritant of your choice, large caliber hand gun)

snoman · November 17, 1998, 11:53 PM

all great points all. I am certified with all that I carry, and checked the insurance situation before hand. The way I see it is that I am more worried about the liability of having a .45 as my only option after my voice.

Mike Mello · December 7, 1998, 11:54 AM

Hello Guys

As a point of reference, the OC spray debait is largely being pushed by the ACLU. Those of you who refer to the positional aphyxia aspect of the problem are correct. You might be interested to learn that a medical professor at UC San Diego has dis-proven the entire positional aphyxia argument, to the point that the original reseacher has changed his opinion.

Your employers might want to see to Federal case laws. Graham vs Conner and Robinette vs Barnes. They deal with what cops (security etc) can carry and escalation and de-escalation factors.

snoman · December 11, 1998, 04:58 PM

Mike***
Do you Know of any other cases??????

Mike Mello · December 17, 1998, 04:51 AM

Sorry to get back to you so late Snoman. There is a "ton" of cases out there. Your best bet is to search the web. I'll try and dig up some of the web sites that I use for legal updates.

Any police forum has some great links.

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November 16, 1998, 12:02 PM	#1
snoman Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1998 Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn, USA Posts: 127	I carry a H&K .45, 26" asp, Def Tech foam mace, UTL, surefire 6r, and a Taurus PT111 in a B.U.G. holster on my stabpro 2 vest. The boss lets me carry them but does not like it.? My reasoning for it is there are times when shooting someone is just not justified. I was hoping for some useful arguments to bring to him and "bring change" Snoman...

November 16, 1998, 01:02 PM	#2
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Sorry, Sno, which is it that the boss doesn't like you carrying? BTW, I think this is relevant to your post: THP was just ordered to remove the pepper spray from their duty belts because of a news story which had "medical evidence" that pepper spray could kill. Now, there is HUGE gap in the normal escalation of force policy for that department. What would've been clear cut times for using the spray will now have to be dealt with either by baton or firearm. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 16, 1998, 10:59 PM	#3
snoman Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1998 Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn, USA Posts: 127	Rob, every thing but the gun. He even hates the idea of two extra mags!!! Go figure?? I don't think they have a use of force policy. [This message has been edited by snoman (edited 11-16-98).] [This message has been edited by snoman (edited 11-16-98).]

November 16, 1998, 11:18 PM	#4
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Okay, I had to check you profile to see what business you were in. I assume that you are referring to your Armored car driving job. (which is no job I would ever want, BTW) Given that your most likely to be attacked only by people who really think about how to attack you in your role as an A.C. driver, I think your boss is, technically.... loopy. In your other job, F.R., I would guess that you can carry whatever you want, but are more restricted by concealment concerns. Hopefully you use you pepper spray to your advantage in that job. Anyway, your boss maybe concerned about your appearance to the clients, who don't want Rambo showing up walking through their places of business. Well, to them I say: "Fine, handle your own pick ups and wear whatever you want." I can't believe that he fails to see that you will look more professional the more you look like you know what you are doing. Police Officers are (usually) perceived by the public to have a clue and they wear the full load on their duty belts. If you have a professional looking duty belt and wear your gear properly, I can't figure what his problem is. Now, that said, some states are tricky about being "authorized" to use blunt weapons and spray. Is it possible that your license or his insurance does not cover pepper spray and/or the ASP? Either way, that has nothing to do with the extra mags, etc. Do you work in teams or alone? ------------------ *-Essayons* [This message has been edited by Rob (edited 11-17-98).]

November 17, 1998, 09:33 AM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Concerning deaths attributable to OC, there are more documented cases related to mace than OC. The argument about pepper spray induced death continues and is largely tied to the so called positional asphyxia which los medicos are still arguing about. Snoman, advise your boss that the more equipment you've got, the more options you exercise. It's one thing to shout, "Back off M-F" and quite another to shoot. At least with the OC & impact weapon, you've got options between running and shooting. That's why a lot of departments want their officers to carry impact weapons and OC. It gives them alternatives to deadly force and an edge over bare handed brawling. If all comes to worse, explain that force is that which is reasonable under the circumstance. If he takes away your equipment, then he's creating greater liability for both you and the employer.

November 17, 1998, 12:07 PM	#6
Harry Humphries Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA Posts: 59	Snoman, I concur with Rob's advice, given what information he has gleaned. But you should remember to balance - you know, too mush speed, not enough accuracy, too much power, etc.. In your case Too much gear, not enough decision capability or mobility. Keep it simple but maintain the capability to use less lethal force if the situation does not warrant lethal force escalation. ( i.e ASP Baton, Chemical irritant of your choice, large caliber hand gun)

November 17, 1998, 11:53 PM	#7
snoman Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1998 Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn, USA Posts: 127	all great points all. I am certified with all that I carry, and checked the insurance situation before hand. The way I see it is that I am more worried about the liability of having a .45 as my only option after my voice.

December 7, 1998, 11:54 AM	#8
Mike Mello Member Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Hunt. Bch. CA USA Posts: 29	Hello Guys As a point of reference, the OC spray debait is largely being pushed by the ACLU. Those of you who refer to the positional aphyxia aspect of the problem are correct. You might be interested to learn that a medical professor at UC San Diego has dis-proven the entire positional aphyxia argument, to the point that the original reseacher has changed his opinion. Your employers might want to see to Federal case laws. Graham vs Conner and Robinette vs Barnes. They deal with what cops (security etc) can carry and escalation and de-escalation factors.

December 11, 1998, 04:58 PM	#9
snoman Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 1998 Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn, USA Posts: 127	Mike*** Do you Know of any other cases??????

December 17, 1998, 04:51 AM	#10
Mike Mello Member Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Hunt. Bch. CA USA Posts: 29	Sorry to get back to you so late Snoman. There is a "ton" of cases out there. Your best bet is to search the web. I'll try and dig up some of the web sites that I use for legal updates. Any police forum has some great links.