Lessons for new reloaders-don't do this

DaleA · February 13, 2018, 07:24 PM

This is a little story about assumptions, keeping an open mind and maybe doing a little research/reading about trying out new loads. Disclaimer: no drama in this story, no kabooms.

I’ve been loading for a *lot* of years.

Mostly shotshells and pistol. My father showed me how to load shotshells for him the way he wanted them for trap shooting.

As for pistol I did not have anyone to show me how to reload and there was no internet back in the day so it was just ‘The ABC’s of Reloading’ and another reloading manual that I had. I read the books, bought a press and dies from the local hardware store, had some problems, discovered the ‘plunk’ test and all was well.

Later on when I started shooting in a pistol league I used what most of those shooters used as far as bullets and powder went. I was NOT what you would call innovative. I had stuff that worked and didn’t change or look for anything better. It might be fair to say I had some tunnel vision as far as reloading went.

This site opened my eyes to lots of new things and I decided to try the new powder Titegroup. I also got some 148 grain hollow base lead wadcutters for bullets. They were from a manufacturer I had never used before but I had loaded similar style bullets from a couple other manufacturers and ASSUMED these would perform just as the others had.

I loaded up some really, really mild .357 magnum loads (the starting load in one of my reloading manuals) to shoot in a revolver and went off to the local indoor range. After about 12 rounds one of my buddies asked dryly if I had ever heard of the newest thing that was sweeping the reloading world called ‘smokeless powder’. The doggone things were definitely causing a haze in the air and accuracy wasn’t very good at all so I put the remaining rounds away and immediately called it quits with Titegroup. This of course was NOT justified.

1. I was using bullets I had not used before. Perhaps the bullets were a little off in size for my revolver.
2. Maybe the lube on the new bullets was the culprit.
3. I don’t think I was putting much, if any of a roll crimp on the rounds as they were just powder puff loads.
4. It never occurred to me that moving up from the starting load Titegroup might produce a cleaner burning cartridge without so much smoke.

Things happen in the world and I quit shooting for a while. Reading this forum and hearing other people’s success stories made me realize blaming Tightgroup for my problems was wrong.

So there you have it. Learn from my mistakes. They don’t apply to just Tightgroup, I think they’re more like ‘universal’ mistakes. BTW I plan on giving Tightgroup another try sometime in the future.

Slamfire · February 13, 2018, 08:05 PM

Quote:

I loaded up some really, really mild .357 magnum loads (the starting load in one of my reloading manuals) to shoot in a revolver and went off to the local indoor range. After about 12 rounds one of my buddies asked dryly if I had ever heard of the newest thing that was sweeping the reloading world called ‘smokeless powder’. The doggone things were definitely causing a haze in the air and accuracy wasn’t very good at all so I put the remaining rounds away and immediately called it quits with Titegroup. This of course was NOT justified.

1. I was using bullets I had not used before. Perhaps the bullets were a little off in size for my revolver.
2. Maybe the lube on the new bullets was the culprit.
3. I don’t think I was putting much, if any of a roll crimp on the rounds as they were just powder puff loads.
4. It never occurred to me that moving up from the starting load Titegroup might produce a cleaner burning cartridge without so much smoke.

Things happen in the world and I quit shooting for a while. Reading this forum and hearing other people’s success stories made me realize blaming Tightgroup for my problems was wrong.

So there you have it. Learn from my mistakes. They don’t apply to just Tightgroup, I think they’re more like ‘universal’ mistakes. BTW I plan on giving Tightgroup another try sometime in the future.

A fellow shooter, who used to be on Larry Moore's Long Range Rifle Team (Larry first started work at Springfield Armory with John Garand prior to WW2), asked Larry how many rounds it took before Larry had real confidence in a load. And Larry said "about 20,000". I don't think Larry was joking either, he shot every service rifle prototype up to the adoption of the M16, and he was probably involved in the tests of the hundreds of thousands of rounds that were fired for the selection of the load for the National Matches.

Twelve rounds could be enough data to make a selection, but, small sample sizes don't really tell much. And we all have done this. I am constantly finding that rifle/load combinations that I thought were "not so good", on another day, are really, "pretty good". Sometimes outstanding. It takes rounds down range to really determine the quality and adequacy of any load combination. And, it is too easy to assign a cause to one variable, when we have changed a lot of variables. Call it, confirmation bias, we just don't believe those other changes make a difference and we ignore all evidence contrary.

I do know that Titegroup is very popular with the Bullseye Pistol crowd and that is a good recommendation. Hardly anyone shoots a revolver, but it is very popular in the 45 ACP. And it ought to be make outstanding target loads with 148 LSWC's in the 38 Special case.

condor bravo · February 13, 2018, 09:57 PM

It seems a lot of blame is put on smokeless powder causing the smoke, but the actual culprit is the bullet lube. Some causing more smoke than others. Switch to coated bullets like Hi-Tek available from sources like SNS and Missouri Bullets. Usually some smoking but hardly enough to be noticed. Although the black moly coats seem to be completely smokeless.

Charlie98 · February 13, 2018, 10:21 PM

Hollow base wadcutters are usually pretty soft... the TiteGroup might also be vaporizing some of the lead off the bullets. Maybe try something a little cleaner like W231 or WST.

I have 2# of TiteGroup I bought during the powder shortage, I'm in the process of burning it up... that and the RedDot I bought, too. I won't be getting any more. I know TG has it's fans, I'm not among them.

jamaica · February 14, 2018, 01:16 AM

Hmmm, I have been loading many years and never used any TiteGroup Try something different.

lordmorgul · February 14, 2018, 10:27 AM

I could be guilty of that with Win 231. My brother and I got some when first reloading and used it in 40S&W loads and hated the cloud of smoke and sparks (visible burning powder in daylight) we got out of all three semi-auto brands we tried those loads in. They were obviously low power loads just off minimum but we assumed it would only burn worse and brighter flash with more. Switched to Accurate #2 and stayed there.

locknloader · February 14, 2018, 10:27 AM

I use Titegroup in my 9 and 40 target loads and it works fine and is very accurate. Meters like a dream using hornady LNL case activated powder drop. I have noticed that it burns very dirty if using the starting load but if you bump up into the middle of the range for powder weight it will burn much cleaner.

I just got some HP-38 (W231) to try out and it shoots pretty much the same as Titegroup, the powder weight range is also extremely small like Titegroup so need to make sure your powder drop is reliable and accurate with both of these powders.

The only thing i dislike about the HP-38 so far is the granules seem to be lighter and i will get some flakes jump out of the case when my LNL indexes to the next position and the little ball bearings on the shell plate snap into place. Will have to see if i run into the same issue with 40 since thats a slightly bigger case, due to this issue i will likely stick with titegroup for my 9mm loads.

February 13, 2018, 07:24 PM	#1
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Lessons for new reloaders-don't do this This is a little story about assumptions, keeping an open mind and maybe doing a little research/reading about trying out new loads. Disclaimer: no drama in this story, no kabooms. I’ve been loading for a lot of years. Mostly shotshells and pistol. My father showed me how to load shotshells for him the way he wanted them for trap shooting. As for pistol I did not have anyone to show me how to reload and there was no internet back in the day so it was just ‘The ABC’s of Reloading’ and another reloading manual that I had. I read the books, bought a press and dies from the local hardware store, had some problems, discovered the ‘plunk’ test and all was well. Later on when I started shooting in a pistol league I used what most of those shooters used as far as bullets and powder went. I was NOT what you would call innovative. I had stuff that worked and didn’t change or look for anything better. It might be fair to say I had some tunnel vision as far as reloading went. This site opened my eyes to lots of new things and I decided to try the new powder Titegroup. I also got some 148 grain hollow base lead wadcutters for bullets. They were from a manufacturer I had never used before but I had loaded similar style bullets from a couple other manufacturers and ASSUMED these would perform just as the others had. I loaded up some really, really mild .357 magnum loads (the starting load in one of my reloading manuals) to shoot in a revolver and went off to the local indoor range. After about 12 rounds one of my buddies asked dryly if I had ever heard of the newest thing that was sweeping the reloading world called ‘smokeless powder’. The doggone things were definitely causing a haze in the air and accuracy wasn’t very good at all so I put the remaining rounds away and immediately called it quits with Titegroup. This of course was NOT justified. 1. I was using bullets I had not used before. Perhaps the bullets were a little off in size for my revolver. 2. Maybe the lube on the new bullets was the culprit. 3. I don’t think I was putting much, if any of a roll crimp on the rounds as they were just powder puff loads. 4. It never occurred to me that moving up from the starting load Titegroup might produce a cleaner burning cartridge without so much smoke. Things happen in the world and I quit shooting for a while. Reading this forum and hearing other people’s success stories made me realize blaming Tightgroup for my problems was wrong. So there you have it. Learn from my mistakes. They don’t apply to just Tightgroup, I think they’re more like ‘universal’ mistakes. BTW I plan on giving Tightgroup another try sometime in the future.

February 13, 2018, 09:57 PM	#3
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	It seems a lot of blame is put on smokeless powder causing the smoke, but the actual culprit is the bullet lube. Some causing more smoke than others. Switch to coated bullets like Hi-Tek available from sources like SNS and Missouri Bullets. Usually some smoking but hardly enough to be noticed. Although the black moly coats seem to be completely smokeless. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 13, 2018, 10:21 PM	#4
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	Hollow base wadcutters are usually pretty soft... the TiteGroup might also be vaporizing some of the lead off the bullets. Maybe try something a little cleaner like W231 or WST. I have 2# of TiteGroup I bought during the powder shortage, I'm in the process of burning it up... that and the RedDot I bought, too. I won't be getting any more. I know TG has it's fans, I'm not among them. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

February 14, 2018, 01:16 AM	#5
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	Hmmm, I have been loading many years and never used any TiteGroup Try something different.

February 14, 2018, 10:27 AM	#6
lordmorgul Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2016 Posts: 206	I could be guilty of that with Win 231. My brother and I got some when first reloading and used it in 40S&W loads and hated the cloud of smoke and sparks (visible burning powder in daylight) we got out of all three semi-auto brands we tried those loads in. They were obviously low power loads just off minimum but we assumed it would only burn worse and brighter flash with more. Switched to Accurate #2 and stayed there.

February 14, 2018, 10:27 AM	#7
locknloader Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2017 Posts: 164	I use Titegroup in my 9 and 40 target loads and it works fine and is very accurate. Meters like a dream using hornady LNL case activated powder drop. I have noticed that it burns very dirty if using the starting load but if you bump up into the middle of the range for powder weight it will burn much cleaner. I just got some HP-38 (W231) to try out and it shoots pretty much the same as Titegroup, the powder weight range is also extremely small like Titegroup so need to make sure your powder drop is reliable and accurate with both of these powders. The only thing i dislike about the HP-38 so far is the granules seem to be lighter and i will get some flakes jump out of the case when my LNL indexes to the next position and the little ball bearings on the shell plate snap into place. Will have to see if i run into the same issue with 40 since thats a slightly bigger case, due to this issue i will likely stick with titegroup for my 9mm loads.