Gangsta Style?

[stratus]

Umm... where's Handy when we need him?

[smince]

+1 for what jamaica said.

[Harley Quinn]

The line of sight and the ability to put the bullet on target is one thing.

The bullet leaving the gun and falling by the force of gravity is quite another.

This is where speed and lightweight bullets rule vs slow and heavy. To get on target you have to have a lot of trickery going on with the heavy ones or else they never will get there.

So we are tricking Mother Nature , you know what they say about Tricking Mother Nature
It depends on the way it is communicated and the way one perceives

edit: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=212992 read this one. <*-)

HQ

[pickpocket]

jamaica -

What you are referencing is the "Angle of Departure".. .which is what you CREATE when you adjust your sights. The lower the angle you create by moving your rear sight up the more you increase the Angle of Departure by tilting the front of the barrel up.

The bullet only rises above the line of sight (created by looking through the rear sight and past the front) because that line MUST angle downward in order to work. NO BULLET has a flat trajectory - they all follow the parabolic curve. You angle the barrel up, simply rotate the parabolic curve up as well..the round will fall neither faster nor slower in relation to the force of gravity.

I think the main difference between what you and I are saying (I think) is that you stated in an earlier post that the barrel angles upwards - I'm saying that if you are referencing the Angle of Departure then indeed, the barrel angles upwards if only artificially. However, if you are saying that the barrel angles up in the gun in a state of rest then I must disagree.

I shoot the C.A.R. system, and if you're familiar with that system the gun is fired at about a 30 degree inward tilt - and I can put rounds right where I want them out to 20-30m. I don't have a real desire to shoot my pistol accurrately past those distances, since my focus is on CQB - but in those cases we actually teach to level the gun out so that you can use the sights as they were meant to be used when lining up for a longer shot.

But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.

[stratus]

But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.

Nuff said. These are all relevant arguments, but they don't apply to this thread, really.

[5whiskey]

It's obvious you both understand the concept and are basically saying the same thing, just choosing a different way to say it which is a communication failure. Anyhoo, yes, canting any firearm will cause the strike of the round to pull low and to the left or right. That's why I have a mini level on my rifle.

However, If you are so good with a pistol that you can hit targets far enough so precisely that the cant will actually throw your impact off in a consistant group (with a consistant cant, of course) then you are far better than I will ever be able to comprehend. Look up the drop of a .45 acp round at 50 yds at federals website. It's around 4" or something. The cant of a weapon does throw off the strike of the round but that's getting taken out of context. I know I'm not very precise at 50 yds, I'm certainly not holding groups that will be affected drastically by canting the pistol. The point is, by the time what you both are talking about would really matter you're already beyond the max effective range of a pistol anyway.

I think we're talking more of a low profile technique to shoot over a barricade at a normal engagement range for a pistol, say 30' or so. At this range I don't think canting will throw the strike of the round off enough to miss center mass.

Now, I'm not trying to defend canting a pistol. I'm certainly not gonna speak much for gangsta-style, because I think it's BS. However, it could be a tool used for what blackwater said, MAYBE to keep a low profile while shooting over a barrier. MAYBE. I'm pretty sure I won't be doing it.

[Maser]

I shoot handguns sideways at ranges all the time and nobody seems to care. Mostly because i'm actually hitting what i'm aiming at. Or should I say pointing at. I think shooting sideways if more of an efficient way of shooting if you have a small full auto gun. I once shot a Micro Uzi with a laser sight sideways and it seemed to be more easily controlable than shooting it normally with one hand.

[Harley Quinn]

I invite you to the Northern Ca area and come to the "Gun Room" and we can shoot as many rounds and guns as you want. Hand gun is the name of the game or nothing larger than the M1 Carbine, Shotguns are ok.

This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis.

HQ

[Blackwater OPS]

This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis.

Deal, next time I'm up there.

Course of fire will be:


12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot from the kneeling position over the barricade(or table/rest/whatever they have

12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot while facing 90 degrees away from the target (strong side away)

Scores will be evenly weighted between the two shoots. Pistol must stock(more or less) and in a SD caliber(9mm, .40, .45 10mm)

Target will be a 5 ring at 21 feet.

You shoot uncanted, I will cant. Winner gets dinner, and more importantly the right to say I told you so.

Results will be posted here.

[Harley Quinn]

Training starts today, I have all the above, will probably go with the glocks.
I usually don't use rests, but hey.

Looking forward to it, I am not a rapid firing kind of guy but have done it in the past. This range does not allow to much stuff like double tap but I will talk to them.

We can make it interesting shoot both left and right handed and then both hands. Standing or kneeling makes no difference. I personally like the horse stance.

HQ

[Dust_Devil]

While shooting a gun by holding it sideways is not the first, the best and preferred metheod, you probably never been in a gun fight or never really thought about all the scenerios that could happen in a gun fight where you may just have to hold your gun sideways because of your body position, to keep a low profile or needing to use your weak hand.
Holding you gun in that perfect weaver stance and grip or whatever may look good on paper or in a competition, but in the heat of a real battle, you may just not be able to get in that perfect stance with that perfect grip nor even be able to use your sights to aim.

Holding your gun sideways while behind a ballistic shield is a common practice as shown here.

[Blackwater OPS]

While shooting a gun by holding it sideways is not the first, the best and preferred metheod, you probably never been in a gun fight or never really thought about all the scenerios that could happen in a gun fight where you may just have to hold your gun sideways because of your body position, to keep a low profile or needing to use your weak hand.
Holding you gun in that perfect weaver stance and grip or whatever may look good on paper or in a competition, but in the heat of a real battle, you may just not be able to get in that perfect stance with that perfect grip nor even be able to use your sights to aim.

Exactly.

HQ, I'm looking forward to our match

[Harley Quinn]

But it is still not the gangsta style, we see in the movies and yes we can cant, and we can shoot upside down if need be. But it is like walking, or running, the form is what helps win the race. Easyist on the body.

One of the reasons the 45 Govt model is hard to handle is the wrong twist until you spend many hours of training.

HQ

[Hedley]

haha...just saw this thread and had to post about my range experience last night. I was there, plinking the 100 yd indoor target when this rough looking guy and his skanky girlfriend set up next to me with his .45. While I was loading some stripper clips, I overheard him tell his girlfriend to "hold it like 'dis too keep it from jammin' up..." lol, he had the gun at damn near horizontal. Then, after he loaded up, he moved to target out to, oh, about 4 feet, and just started spraying lead. At first I thought he was just trying to show off, but he did this for about 100rds! He never moved it out more than a yd. It was hilarious. I have never seen someone go to a pistol range to target practice at point blank range. What was even funnier, was that his tiny little girlfriend shot all 8's. 9's and 10's. We were all looking at that silly target the whole time trying to hold back the laughter. This dude looked like he had been around. The only thing he said to me and my SKS was, "Yo, I didn't know they made wooden Tec-9's. That's old school."

[PressCheck]

When shooting weak-hand-only, it can sometimes help to cant the gun slightly so your dominant eye can get a decent sight picture. Canting does not make the holding position turn into "gangsta" style. It is only slight.

Correct!

[stratus]

Originally Posted by Harley Quinn

But it is still not the gangsta style, we see in the movies and yes we can cant, and we can shoot upside down if need be. But it is like walking, or running, the form is what helps win the race. Easyist on the body.

There, now the thread is back to some threshold of sanity.

Gangsta style is when someone holds the gun at a 90 degree cant, and tilts their wrist forward at an angle as well (holding the gun above eye level and to the side) for NO REASON. Not because they need to but because it's a "style". The style of the gangstas. Bust a cap, yo.

What Blackwater is talking about is not gangsta style at all, but a method of shooting that came about due to necessity in certain combat conditions.

So, we're closer to agreement.

[SrtDog]

He's that same Private in the Army who went to the 1SG and asked where he could find a Prick E-8. And the next day went to supply to sign out a box of grid squares.