AR15 Issues and Question

[ARqueen15]

Edit....struggling to post an image here, apparently I can't simply upload one from my computer and instead have to post it at an online host. SOLVED. Should be attached now.

I just picked up what was a promising and fairly priced Savage MSR-15 Patrol...basically a Savage M4-clone. I bought it online and picked it up at my FFL without incident.

The barrel looks to have a heavier profile than normal which I imagine could bode well for accuracy while the furniture is all blackhawk which i'm enjoying considerably less. Small matters those all the same.

The real problem is the trigger completely locked up on me after less than 10 rounds. Now I was using Federal 55 grain FMJ brass, from factory and not reloaded or steel cased bargain basement stuff.

I'm no expert and don't pretend to be one online but tried to go over the things I know of these rifles...I checked the magazine, tried a different magazine, different ammo, the safety, the bolt, bolt carrier grip, cam pin, firing pin, and though things were a bit tight, everything was fine. A friendly person nearby noticed the trigger and hammer pins had walked (or slid out of the receiver slightly). Pushing them back in solved the problem but I'm rather concerned of why this happened in the first place.

Digging around online seems to suggest either the lower is out of spec (the holes for the pins perhaps being too big and what not) or perhaps more likely the springs in the lower were incorrectly installed (backwards probably). I'm disappointed as this is my first Savage gun and let's say our relationship isn't off to a good start.

I want to include a picture of my lower to give you all something to reference . Judging from the photos as well as my hammer being very, very light and easy to pull back I'm going to say the hammer spring is on backwards.

Is this worth reporting to and dealing with Savage? Or better to do myself? Im not happy about a new product that cost $500 but I'd also rather not be without the rifle for 2 months (or however long they take assuming they'll fix it at their factory).

I haven't ever assembled an AR15 lower but I'm guessing with youtube on my side that it should be doable.

[FrankenMauser]

The hammer spring is installed upside down.

Call Savage, tell them you want to fix it yourself. See what they say.

[EEL92fs]

As franken said the hammer spring in upside down here is what is should look like. It's really easy to fix and YouTube has plenty of how to's on it. It seem scary but once you do it there is nothing to it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ar+l...KE-mn9XywufZM:

[ARqueen15]

Thank you for the suggestion!

And yes, that's what mine looks like.

Which is to say, wrong.

Youtube seems helpful and having a rubber mallet and small punch appear to be all I need. Hopefully savage wouldn't void my warranty for fixing this.

[FrankenMauser]

Removing the pin may not require a punch, with the spring installed like that. You may be able to push it out by hand, or with something like the end of a pen (tip retracted).

Installation can usually be done completely by hand, or by starting by hand and using a slight adjuster (hammer - preferably soft-faced) to give a little tap.

[ARqueen15]

Well I worked on it, punch in one hand, youtube in the other, and here's what I ended up with.

The hammer sure seems a lot more taut and offers greater resistance than before when it was easy enough to pull back with my pinky.

Does this look ok?

Before...


After...


Unrelated but for the various pins that go through the lower, if the outside head gets marred (as in scratched my a metal punch let's say), is there a way to fix that? WOuld simple black acrylic or hobby paint do? Maybe something more oriented towards preventing rust like rustoleum?

Thank you

[Mobuck]

Dude, I don't what you've got going on with the rubber gloves but OMG.
The pins going through the lower shouldn't get "marred" unless you're doing a lot of LEGO'ing and really don't need any attention except the normal wiping with an oily rag.

[turtlehead]

Kind of hard to tell from that angle. The spring legs are in the right orientation. The U-shaped part of the spring should be on the shooters side of the hammer (back side). The hammer and spring should have been frustrating for you to install requiring some strength and patience to get the holes to line up for the pin. If it was easy, it's probably wrong. There's a trick to it that comes with some practice and a punch.

So, WITH AN UNLOADED CHAMBER AND NO MAGAZINE charge the rifle with the charging handle and release forward. Move the safety to fire. Aim in a safe downward direction. Pull the trigger. Did the hammer drop with authority? Charge again and pull the trigger. Smack.

No smack. No go.

[turtlehead]

To answer your second question: More scratches will fix the problem. Go shoot it like you stole it.

[Larry Tate]

A set of pins for the lower are cheap. Just replace them and use a softer adjuster next time.

[redlightrich]

There probably is no reason to change pins in the lower. The pin was walking out due to the spring pressure not being there fully. The hammer spring holds the pin in place. The new found pressure from flipping the spring will stop the walking.

For very small scratches, you could use flat black paint. If using spray paint, take the can, shake it well, spray into a cup or the cap until you have a small puddle of liquid, then take a match ( or small paintbrush if you have) and use the ripped end of the match as a brush, and dab a tiny bit of paint to cover any bare aluminum.

You can also simply take a sharpie, but eventually, a black sharpie turns a deep shade of purple. It becomes more obvious against black.

The aluminum, even if bare should not rust or oxidize. Unless you use your rifle in jungle combat conditions. As a range rifle, keep it clean, and all is well.

Good luck, and good work fixing it yourself ( except for those gloves, grease comes off with soap and water ;-0)

Rich

[ARqueen15]

I'm not a dude and prefer to go by Miss since well, I'm not a man, thank you

I wear the gloves because well, some of the chemicals (like CLP) used are not exactly great for your skin.

And about the pins....they were a pain to put back in especially the hammer pin which is all I took out really. I didn't have a punch so i borrowed one from a coworker but while the end was small enough it sort of tapered and got too wide to fit all the way through the hole. Hence I had to fiddle around with it quite a bit to get it through. The videos I saw showed more slender punches and the people would put the punch all the way through the hole so that the hammer was always supported if you will.

I never contemplated replacing the pins since this is a new gun and the spring was installed backwards. The spring had so little tension that I could pull it back with my pinky. In fact i'm betting if i hadn't reoriented the spring that I would have quickly ended up with some misfires due to light primer strikes (thanks to an "undersprung" hammer).

Thanks for the suggestions on the paint --I just didn't want to attract rust and admittedly it being a brand new rifle it felt like getting the door on your new car dinged the moment you walked out of the dealership.

I'll try it again this weekend and hope to have an event free time on the range with it too.

As always I appreciate the great feedback and advice given here. Thank you.

[10-96]

MISS ARqueen15- Thank you.

It might sound goofy, but Thank You for tackling this problem, grabbing some tools, and doing the job yourself. It's always been my hope that my daughters will have that kind of can-do attitude and not be hesitant to develop some mechanical savvy to fix things themselves.

[Powderman]

First thing...your hammer spring is installed incorrectly.

Solution: Grab the hammer just like you have it in the photo. Pull the hammer spring off, turn it 180 degrees, and reinstall.

Second: The grooves in the pins are there for a reason: The legs on the hammer spring are the retaining items that hold the pin in. On the hammer itself, inside the hammer pin recess (hole), you will see the leg of another spring. That is the J-spring, and it serves to hold the hammer in place as well.

[Ricklin]

One of my favorite "tools"

Gray, not screaming yellow NITRILE exam gloves. Don't buy Latex, they are not very chemical resistant, and they do not last long.

Nitrile gloves are great, very popular among the dentists I work with.

The main thing about Nitrile gloves is they are thin. I can't work in thick rubber gloves as they impact my dexterity badly. Dentists wear these while they are working, dexterity is good, esp. if they have a drill turning 400,000 thousand RPM in your mouth.

I dress nicely for work, and hand hygiene is really important in my field. The Nitrile gloves protect my hands and keep them from looking like a car mechanics hands.
Hint: Keep a bottle of baby powder next to your box of gloves, makes putting them on quick and easy. Just shake a little on your hands.

[ARqueen15]

Thank you for the kind words and sage words of advice. I value the input and suggestions I get here because this has been the most mature and sane group of posters i've encountered online.

To the part of gloves...i actually have some nitrile gloves too (in packs of disposable pairs) and have used them along with the latex ones too. I appreciate the comment on how they're not particularly chemical resistant. Good thing I have those nitrile ones and I can start using those.

A bit of a postscript is that sadly the AR is in the hands of Savage at the moment thanks to it firing groups, well, let me rephrase that, thanks to it firing patterns that most closely resemble my 12 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot at 25 feet. Different types of ammo (m855, m193) didn't help, nor did using a scope, a benchrest, irons, having a few range acquaintences shoot it either.

So I'm a bit underwhelmed with my purchase but hoping savage can make it right.

[Unclenick]

Wow. Hard to imagine that kind of grouping unless the crown is mangled or the kid at the distributor's who flipped the spring around also fired a ton of ammo through it and left a thick copper deposit. It will be interesting hear what Savage has to say. I'm hoping they give you a new barrel.

When I visited their plant about 12 years ago I got to take a few shots in their in-house range tunnel, and they told me they fire every repaired gun in that range to be sure it meets their accuracy expectations. IIRC, at the time, for rifles they guaranteed 2" but internally they wouldn't let the gun go home unless it did 1" with three rounds of Federal match ammo. I don't know if the spec will be different for your shorter barrel, but you can rest assured they will check it and shoot it.

I buy boxes of cheap nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight or anywhere else they are on sale. Be aware, too, that there are also better options than CLP for any kind of cleaning these days (if that's what you use it for). I use Bore Tech Eliminator which has a water-base and is non-toxic and virtually odorless. Its chelation chemistry eats copper so much faster than any ammonia-based cleaner you can't even put a patch through on a brass jag before the copper in the brass has started turning the patch blue. The copper and lead compound traces from the primers are all rendered non-toxic in their chelated forms, so disposal isn't a problem. Just get a cheap pump sprayer from the travel section of Walmart near the toothpaste and shaving cream aisles and pump two or three squirts of Eliminator into the breech end with the muzzle down and watch it run down the bore. Then set barrel horizontal and wait 5 minutes and patch it out. You might have to repeat this once or even twice for a super mean fouling barrel, but I haven't used a brush for quite some time now. Just not necessary. The corrosion inhibitors in Eliminator are so good you can leave it and let dry out in a bore and you won't get any rust, despite the water. Please don't ask how I know.

Another product worth considering is Gunzilla. It was developed specifically to get around the toxins in the original CLP formulation for armorers who had their hands in solvent all day long. It's vegetable oil based. They have a version for attacking copper that I've never tried, but the original is just terrific with carbon or moly residue. If you give it overnight to work, all carbon and moly (if you are shooting moly-coated bullets) will come out with the first patch. Put a few drops through the gas tube to get it ready for a thorough pipe-cleaning the next day. If you wipe it thin it gradually dries to leave a sort of very thin varnish-like lubricating film. They claim it became very popular among soldiers using it in Iraq in the mid-2000's because it reduced stoppages as much as 75% and was even being used with some bigger guns for it's effectiveness. It turns carbon into a wipeable tar-like sludge over time and loosens rust really well, too. The only carbon that seems to challenge it is age-hardened hard carbon like you find in an M14 piston or behind the piston head on an M1 Garand op-rod.