How do you handle this confrontation

ghbucky01 · June 24, 2014, 02:08 PM

This did not happen to me, but to a relative.

During summer in the South, he was legally CC in an ankle holster. As he was about to cross in a crosswalk in a busy urban area, a car cut across in front of him so close he actually had to push off of the car to get away from it.

The driver (Mr. Steroid from now on) stopped and began threatening him for touching his car. My relative responded by moving away from the guy, basically putting the guy in a spot where he had to abandon his car in the middle of a street to pursue. Mr. Steroid leaves in a hurry.

My relative is rather freaked out, so he leaves the street to get out of sight in a parking lot and takes a moment when he is out of sight to move his Glock from ankle holster to his pants pocket and continues on his way.

But, Mr. Steroid managed to find him, pulled up and jumps out of his car. My relative continues to open the distance, but Mr. Steroid begins approaching him threatening to kick his ass.

So, what is the correct course of action here?

BarryLee · June 24, 2014, 02:25 PM

I would continue to get as far away from the guy as possible while yelling, “leave me alone, help police, leave me alone, help police”. If possible I would call 911 on my cell phone and let know what was happening or at least here me calling for help. If he got too close I would stop and yell, “stop, leave me alone” as I pulled my gun. At this point I would hope he stopped pursuing me and/or that the police arrived.

Sevens · June 24, 2014, 02:33 PM

Tough situation, but I can tell you that it's a bad, bad, BAD idea to ever put a Glock in your pocket. Plaxico Burris is the most obvious example, but I'm sure there are others.

Best thing I suppose your relative could have done given the BAD circumstances are to be extremely apologetic, almost to the point of absurdity. Give in to the irrational behavior of the obvious idiot in the equation, even if it means putting your own ego out of the equation.

Because in the end, it comes down to possibly (likely?) being assaulted, and then finding yourself in the position to maybe have to draw a gun, or shoot a man, or kill a man. None of those are better options than taking the high road and attempting to give in to the ego of the idiot who has caused the confrontation.

Even far worse to bring a handgun in to the situation if the other person isn't brandishing an obvious weapon of some manner. It gets to be far more difficult to prove the justification in the escalation of force. (I am not saying it isn't justified, it just leads to a far greater potential hole of liability for the good guy with the handgun)

skizzums · June 24, 2014, 02:35 PM

I can't speak for the actual law, but if the situation came to that, I would draw my gun and hope he stops approaching upon seeing a firearm. If he didn't stop, I hate to say it, but I probably would shoot. I have never had to use/draw a firearm in my life, so I can't say for sure how I would react.

Sevens · June 24, 2014, 02:36 PM

In reading your post again, it seems as if this actually happened but you did NOT share the end of it.

I will go ahead and say that if nobody got shot
and nobody got beaten
and the good guy with the gun didn't end up with charges filed against him
and he didn't end up losing his handgun to an evidence locker at a police station

...then whatever he DID was as close to EXACTLY RIGHT as could be expected given a very difficult situation that happens at warp speed.

ghbucky01 · June 24, 2014, 02:47 PM

Quote:

In reading your post again, it seems as if this actually happened but you did NOT share the end of it.

I will go ahead and say that if nobody got shot
and nobody got beaten
and the good guy with the gun didn't end up with charges filed against him
and he didn't end up losing his handgun to an evidence locker at a police station

...then whatever he DID was as close to EXACTLY RIGHT as could be expected given a very difficult situation that happens at warp speed.

Yes, you are exactly correct... it did happen and I didn't share the ending....

Quote:

I can't speak for the actual law, but if the situation came to that, I would draw my gun and hope he stops approaching upon seeing a firearm. If he didn't stop, I hate to say it, but I probably would shoot. I have never had to use/draw a firearm in my life, so I can't say for sure how I would react.

... this in fact is exactly how my relative reacted. He was frightened enough to draw his gun and hold it prominently displayed, but pointed at the ground.

The response very nearly turned disastrous. Mr. Steroid actually laughed when he saw the gun and asked: "Do you want me to get mine?" and turned toward his car.

Thank God the guy just got in and drove off.

I think my relative said he tried to apologize, but the guy seemed determined to have a fight over it (hence my moniker, Mr Steroid)

Corrections Cop · June 24, 2014, 02:49 PM

He did the right thing by walking away.

Why would you shoot someone who was yelling at you as you walk away?

Call the cops and walk into a populated area and keep walking.

45Gunner · June 24, 2014, 02:53 PM

Not familiar with the laws in KY but rest assured that whatever State one happens to be in, pulling a gun will significantly change your life, whether or not it was used. In this scenario, all well that ends well. If this guy, Mr. Steroid, were coming at me and i felt that my life were in danger or I was about to be on the receiving end of great bodily harm, you bet I will unholster my gun for that's why I carry it. The key here is that I would have to know that unless I presented my gun, my perception is that I would die or be severely beaten. And as mentioned in another post, it wouldn't be a Glock that I would put in my pocket without a trigger guard protection. Great way to end any situation by shooting oneself.

MtnCreek · June 24, 2014, 02:55 PM

+1 to Sevens comment.

I know one possibility is the guy backs off after the pistol comes into play and tells a heck of a whopper to LE, they hold his pistol for the next several months waiting to see if the 'poor victim' presses charges. Right & Wrong and the Law are not always the same.

manta49 · June 24, 2014, 03:05 PM

I would say ask yourself what would you do if you did not have a firearm, and do that.

Sevens · June 24, 2014, 03:16 PM

^Decent suggestion.

ghbucky01 · June 24, 2014, 03:33 PM

Quote:

I would say ask yourself what would you do if you did not have a firearm, and do that.

hoping you can outrun him? That isn't going to happen.

spacemanspiff · June 24, 2014, 03:34 PM

It is equally acceptable (but looked down upon by those who cannot sacrifice their ego) to be apologetic and concede to the aggressor.
"I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend. You are right, you are the man, and I am a little weakling. I promise I will not ever do anything so stupid in your presence ever again. You have an Outtie, and I have an Innie."

Far too often people are forgetting that for the responsible armed citizen, it is up to them to do EVERYTHING possible to de-escalate. Matching aggression with aggression, BEFORE an actual threat has been made, either verbally ("I"m gonna beat your blanking-blank, you blank-of-a-blank!") or physically (aggressor displays a weapon of some sort) (aggressor has a disparity of force based on size) (aggressor has multiple black belts in martial arts and happens to be wearing them for the world to see), is ill advised.

Just because you concede and are apologetic when you are in the right, does not make you less of a man.

manta49 · June 24, 2014, 03:47 PM

Quote:

hoping you can outrun him? That isn't going to happen.

I don't think I said anything about outrunning him.

Jim567 · June 24, 2014, 03:53 PM

I would say ask yourself what would you do if you did not have a firearm, and do that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

One good option for plan "A"!

Have a plan "B" also.

doofus47 · June 24, 2014, 04:23 PM

Did this change the way your cousin feels about ankle holsters?

The fact that he moved the pistol to a more accessible location tells me that he thought twice about it and changed his mind.

zombietactics · June 24, 2014, 04:34 PM

If I have de-escalated by getting as far away from Steroid-Boy (SB)as possible, I've done all that is truly necessary to articulate that I did not escalate the situation. It's hard to do when someone is being an ass, but I probably would have shouted "Sorry!" as I was hurrying away.

If SB has now tracked me down, the situation just got real in a hurry. I'm going to continue to make distance as quickly and safely as I can, but if SB continues pursuit, and gets close enough to ascertain that an attack is likely ... that's a huge disparity of force between an older man and a younger man in much better shape.

Ballistic equalization will be applied in any and all such circumstances.

ghbucky01 · June 24, 2014, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Did this change the way your cousin feels about ankle holsters?

The fact that he moved the pistol to a more accessible location tells me that he thought twice about it and changed his mind.

There really wasn't another option for him.

He is a professional, so he was wearing light, summer 'office casual' clothing that doesn't allow for waistband carry without being obvious about it in an office environment.

Ankle carry beats no carry. But yeah, he obviously realizes that it isn't exactly accessible there, hence why he moved the gun when he feared a confrontation was coming.

sm · June 25, 2014, 09:04 AM

Distance is your friend.
Be as civil and polite as possible under the circumstances.
Call 911 FIRST if stuff starts going south.

Skadoosh · June 25, 2014, 09:16 AM

...dialing 911 would be a good start.

doofus47 · June 25, 2014, 09:31 AM

ghbucky

Quote:

He is a professional, so he was wearing light, summer 'office casual' clothing that doesn't allow for waistband carry without being obvious about it in an office environment.

Fair enough.

**OldMarksman** · June 25, 2014, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Posted by skizzums: I can't speak for the actual law, but if the situation came to that, I would draw my gun and hope he stops approaching upon seeing a firearm. If he didn't stop, I hate to say it, but I probably would shoot. I have never had to use/draw a firearm in my life, so I can't say for sure how I would react.

Thats a very good way to risk ending up on the wrong side of the law, and it exposes one to the risk of being shot. See this.

Willie Lowman · June 25, 2014, 12:14 PM

I had a similar experience once. It started from using a curb side parking spot in front of a "steroid guy's" house. He came running (yes really running) out of his house shouting about how nobody could park there, it was his spot, etc etc etc. He got right in my face, poked me in the chest several times, shouting about his ownership of a curb spot on a public road. I was pocket carrying my Glock (I had just got my CHL and not found a good holster/belt yet)

Here's how I handled it.

I apologized about 20 times. I moved my car. I did not draw my gun. I did not threaten the man. A friend who was a witness to the encounter (steroid guy's next door neighbor actually) asked me if I was carrying a gun. I showed her that I was, in fact, carrying a gun.

People seem to think that if they have a CHL they have to look for a reason to draw their gun. Sometimes it is necessary. Most times it isn't.

There is an old saying about having a gun and not needing it being better than needing one and not having it. I find that having a gun and not using it is better than using a gun and enduring the investigation and court case.

ghbucky01 · June 25, 2014, 12:30 PM

Quote:

I had a similar experience once. It started from using a curb side parking spot in front of a "steroid guy's" house. He came running (yes really running) out of his house shouting about how nobody could park there, it was his spot, etc etc etc. He got right in my face, poked me in the chest several times, shouting about his ownership of a curb spot on a public road. I was pocket carrying my Glock (I had just got my CHL and not found a good holster/belt yet)

Did he at any point say he was going to attack you?

Willie Lowman · June 25, 2014, 12:58 PM

I honestly couldn't make out most of what he was saying. Most of what he was saying (shouting/screaming) was profanity and a few times he clearly repeated "MY ------ PARKING SPACE!!!" He came out his door, across the yard, and up to jab-me-in-the-chest distance in record time.

He may have said that he was going to kill me if I didn't move my car... He may have said that he wanted to read the Watchtower with me and talk about our Lord... I don't know for sure. It was hard to understand between the bad breath, chest pokes, and profanity.

I can tell you that he was not visibly armed. I could have pulled my gun and escalated the situation. If he made an attempt to fill his hands, I am sure I could have pulled my gun and fired several rounds into his abdomen but he didn't and I didn't. The world might be a better place if I had shot him. I made a snap decision that saying "I'm sorry I'll move my car" was better than seeing if Gold-Dots work as advertised. I'm glad I had it... Didn't need it.

I sleep better knowing that I didn't take a man's life because he was flipping out about a curb side spot. I'm not saying ghbucky did wrong in his scenario. Just telling you how mine worked out for me.

June 24, 2014, 02:08 PM	#1
ghbucky01 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2014 Location: Northern, KY Posts: 176	How do you handle this confrontation This did not happen to me, but to a relative. During summer in the South, he was legally CC in an ankle holster. As he was about to cross in a crosswalk in a busy urban area, a car cut across in front of him so close he actually had to push off of the car to get away from it. The driver (Mr. Steroid from now on) stopped and began threatening him for touching his car. My relative responded by moving away from the guy, basically putting the guy in a spot where he had to abandon his car in the middle of a street to pursue. Mr. Steroid leaves in a hurry. My relative is rather freaked out, so he leaves the street to get out of sight in a parking lot and takes a moment when he is out of sight to move his Glock from ankle holster to his pants pocket and continues on his way. But, Mr. Steroid managed to find him, pulled up and jumps out of his car. My relative continues to open the distance, but Mr. Steroid begins approaching him threatening to kick his ass. So, what is the correct course of action here?

June 24, 2014, 02:25 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I would continue to get as far away from the guy as possible while yelling, “leave me alone, help police, leave me alone, help police”. If possible I would call 911 on my cell phone and let know what was happening or at least here me calling for help. If he got too close I would stop and yell, “stop, leave me alone” as I pulled my gun. At this point I would hope he stopped pursuing me and/or that the police arrived. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

June 24, 2014, 02:33 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Tough situation, but I can tell you that it's a bad, bad, BAD idea to ever put a Glock in your pocket. Plaxico Burris is the most obvious example, but I'm sure there are others. Best thing I suppose your relative could have done given the BAD circumstances are to be extremely apologetic, almost to the point of absurdity. Give in to the irrational behavior of the obvious idiot in the equation, even if it means putting your own ego out of the equation. Because in the end, it comes down to possibly (likely?) being assaulted, and then finding yourself in the position to maybe have to draw a gun, or shoot a man, or kill a man. None of those are better options than taking the high road and attempting to give in to the ego of the idiot who has caused the confrontation. Even far worse to bring a handgun in to the situation if the other person isn't brandishing an obvious weapon of some manner. It gets to be far more difficult to prove the justification in the escalation of force. (I am not saying it isn't justified, it just leads to a far greater potential hole of liability for the good guy with the handgun) __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 24, 2014, 02:35 PM	#4
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	I can't speak for the actual law, but if the situation came to that, I would draw my gun and hope he stops approaching upon seeing a firearm. If he didn't stop, I hate to say it, but I probably would shoot. I have never had to use/draw a firearm in my life, so I can't say for sure how I would react. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

June 24, 2014, 02:36 PM	#5
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	In reading your post again, it seems as if this actually happened but you did NOT share the end of it. I will go ahead and say that if nobody got shot and nobody got beaten and the good guy with the gun didn't end up with charges filed against him and he didn't end up losing his handgun to an evidence locker at a police station ...then whatever he DID was as close to EXACTLY RIGHT as could be expected given a very difficult situation that happens at warp speed. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 24, 2014, 02:49 PM	#7
Corrections Cop Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2012 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 390	He did the right thing by walking away. Why would you shoot someone who was yelling at you as you walk away? Call the cops and walk into a populated area and keep walking.

June 24, 2014, 02:53 PM	#8
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Not familiar with the laws in KY but rest assured that whatever State one happens to be in, pulling a gun will significantly change your life, whether or not it was used. In this scenario, all well that ends well. If this guy, Mr. Steroid, were coming at me and i felt that my life were in danger or I was about to be on the receiving end of great bodily harm, you bet I will unholster my gun for that's why I carry it. The key here is that I would have to know that unless I presented my gun, my perception is that I would die or be severely beaten. And as mentioned in another post, it wouldn't be a Glock that I would put in my pocket without a trigger guard protection. Great way to end any situation by shooting oneself. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

June 24, 2014, 02:55 PM	#9
MtnCreek Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 176	+1 to Sevens comment. I know one possibility is the guy backs off after the pistol comes into play and tells a heck of a whopper to LE, they hold his pistol for the next several months waiting to see if the 'poor victim' presses charges. Right & Wrong and the Law are not always the same.

June 24, 2014, 03:05 PM	#10
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	I would say ask yourself what would you do if you did not have a firearm, and do that.

June 24, 2014, 03:16 PM	#11
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	^Decent suggestion. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 24, 2014, 03:34 PM	#13
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	It is equally acceptable (but looked down upon by those who cannot sacrifice their ego) to be apologetic and concede to the aggressor. "I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend. You are right, you are the man, and I am a little weakling. I promise I will not ever do anything so stupid in your presence ever again. You have an Outtie, and I have an Innie." Far too often people are forgetting that for the responsible armed citizen, it is up to them to do EVERYTHING possible to de-escalate. Matching aggression with aggression, BEFORE an actual threat has been made, either verbally ("I"m gonna beat your blanking-blank, you blank-of-a-blank!") or physically (aggressor displays a weapon of some sort) (aggressor has a disparity of force based on size) (aggressor has multiple black belts in martial arts and happens to be wearing them for the world to see), is ill advised. Just because you concede and are apologetic when you are in the right, does not make you less of a man. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

June 24, 2014, 03:53 PM	#15
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I would say ask yourself what would you do if you did not have a firearm, and do that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- One good option for plan "A"! Have a plan "B" also.

June 24, 2014, 04:23 PM	#16
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	Did this change the way your cousin feels about ankle holsters? The fact that he moved the pistol to a more accessible location tells me that he thought twice about it and changed his mind. __________________ I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.

June 24, 2014, 04:34 PM	#17
zombietactics Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2012 Location: Northern California Posts: 447	If I have de-escalated by getting as far away from Steroid-Boy (SB)as possible, I've done all that is truly necessary to articulate that I did not escalate the situation. It's hard to do when someone is being an ass, but I probably would have shouted "Sorry!" as I was hurrying away. If SB has now tracked me down, the situation just got real in a hurry. I'm going to continue to make distance as quickly and safely as I can, but if SB continues pursuit, and gets close enough to ascertain that an attack is likely ... that's a huge disparity of force between an older man and a younger man in much better shape. Ballistic equalization will be applied in any and all such circumstances. __________________ __________________ NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer

June 25, 2014, 09:04 AM	#19
sm Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2002 Posts: 1,819	Distance is your friend. Be as civil and polite as possible under the circumstances. Call 911 FIRST if stuff starts going south. __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL Alumni

June 25, 2014, 09:16 AM	#20
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	...dialing 911 would be a good start. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

June 25, 2014, 12:14 PM	#23
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	I had a similar experience once. It started from using a curb side parking spot in front of a "steroid guy's" house. He came running (yes really running) out of his house shouting about how nobody could park there, it was his spot, etc etc etc. He got right in my face, poked me in the chest several times, shouting about his ownership of a curb spot on a public road. I was pocket carrying my Glock (I had just got my CHL and not found a good holster/belt yet) Here's how I handled it. I apologized about 20 times. I moved my car. I did not draw my gun. I did not threaten the man. A friend who was a witness to the encounter (steroid guy's next door neighbor actually) asked me if I was carrying a gun. I showed her that I was, in fact, carrying a gun. People seem to think that if they have a CHL they have to look for a reason to draw their gun. Sometimes it is necessary. Most times it isn't. There is an old saying about having a gun and not needing it being better than needing one and not having it. I find that having a gun and not using it is better than using a gun and enduring the investigation and court case.

June 25, 2014, 12:58 PM	#25
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	I honestly couldn't make out most of what he was saying. Most of what he was saying (shouting/screaming) was profanity and a few times he clearly repeated "MY ------ PARKING SPACE!!!" He came out his door, across the yard, and up to jab-me-in-the-chest distance in record time. He may have said that he was going to kill me if I didn't move my car... He may have said that he wanted to read the Watchtower with me and talk about our Lord... I don't know for sure. It was hard to understand between the bad breath, chest pokes, and profanity. I can tell you that he was not visibly armed. I could have pulled my gun and escalated the situation. If he made an attempt to fill his hands, I am sure I could have pulled my gun and fired several rounds into his abdomen but he didn't and I didn't. The world might be a better place if I had shot him. I made a snap decision that saying "I'm sorry I'll move my car" was better than seeing if Gold-Dots work as advertised. I'm glad I had it... Didn't need it. I sleep better knowing that I didn't take a man's life because he was flipping out about a curb side spot. I'm not saying ghbucky did wrong in his scenario. Just telling you how mine worked out for me.