Trouble with 9mm LEE mold

David Bachelder · February 11, 2013, 05:17 PM

This is a little unusual, I think. The problem is the top ring on the bullet.

This is a LEE mold # 90465, 9mm 124 grain round nose. This bullet is made for LEE Alox Tumble lube. I have had great success with the lube and the rest of my LEE molds, however this one is causing a problem. When I load them into my Ruger BlackHawk they will not seat deep enough and stop the cylinder from turning. After a lot of head scratching I see that the top ring of the bullet, which shows just above the brass when I use 1.125" as the cartridge overall length (length from the Hodgden site).

The top ring is acting like an extension of the brass and keeps the reload from chambering properly (round is too long), which prevents the cylinder from turning.

I used a pocket knife to cut the top ring off and the reload fit perfectly. I don't have the time to cut each and every reload to fit so it looks like I need a new mold.

A mistake on LEE's part?

Please see photo

Vance · February 11, 2013, 08:07 PM

I just looked up 9mm 124gr LRN loads on hogdon and they specify a COL of 1.169.

Mike / Tx · February 12, 2013, 05:46 AM

Are these already loaded rounds or just dummy rounds for test purposes?

If loaded with the Hodgdon data are they the start load or max load or somewhere in between?

Are you using the top ring as an actual crimp groove or simply seating them up to it for a taper crimp?

To be honest if it were me, and I were only going to use this in a BH, I would simply and seat them in until they just did fit the cylinder length. Then I would check that measurement against the noted measurement in a couple of manuals or listed online lengths as well as the corresponding data.

I would probably then note the start load data for the shortest listed lengths, bearing in mind that this would probably now be within the max load range of my now deeper seated bullet, and back off about two tenths of a grain or so, and use that as a start load.

The thing with the 9mm is that it's a higher pressure caliber and the seating depth usually plays a role in the pressure. It can get squirrely when you seat bullets deaper than they should be with some powders. So if your seating deeper than the listed lenght you need to have some give and take with the powder to compensate for the now diminished area behind the bullet.

That said, #1 your using a lead bullet which will not build pressure nearly as fast as a jacketed," in most cases." #2 your using a light for caliber bullet as well which should also aid in reducing pressure build up to some extent. #3 your running these in a BH and not using them in an auto action pistol which may or may not have a fully supported chamber. That's not to say that you can't blow a cylinder out of a BH, but by going with a slight reduction in charge to allow for the deeper seating depth, and using cast bullets, your chances are slim to none.

This is simply MY take on your situation. I have used this same thought process in the past for finding loads with bullets which I had no data for. It isn't scientific, nor is it guaranteed, but I have never blown anything up being careful to adjust the charge to accommodate the more or less weight, and area the bullet might take up in the cases. Just a few thoughts on how I might go about this if it were me.

David Bachelder · February 12, 2013, 07:49 AM

"If loaded with the Hodgdon data are they the start load or max load or somewhere in between?"
The bullets actual weight averages 125 grains. So I'm using mid range data for both Titegroup and Hodgdon Universal.

"Are you using the top ring as an actual crimp groove or simply seating them up to it for a taper crimp?"
I was seating the bullets to a COAL of 1.125" This fell just under the top ring.

I can see that I have made some mistakes, I need to re-evaluate.

Lyman data says a COL of 1.115" is called for in a 125 grain lead Alloy #2. My alloy is not quite that hard as I use a 95/2.5/2.5 mix.

I need to do a little more research. I do know one thing for sure, 1.125" or anything longer will not work in the Ruger chamber. It must be shorter or the top ring has to be removed. The only way to get to 1.115" is to seat mostly over the top ring.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 12, 2013, 09:03 AM

Are they longer than a factory 115 grain FMJ? What is the listed shortest depth you can seat them at? Since feeding in a semi auto is not a concern i would seat them shorter at the starting load then work up. Wirh 9mm just a taper crimp to remove the flare is all that is needed. Do not worry about the crimp groove.

Mike / Tx · February 12, 2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:

"If loaded with the Hodgdon data are they the start load or max load or somewhere in between?"
The bullets actual weight averages 125 grains. So I'm using mid range data for both Titegroup and Hodgdon Universal.

"Are you using the top ring as an actual crimp groove or simply seating them up to it for a taper crimp?"
I was seating the bullets to a COAL of 1.125" This fell just under the top ring.

I can see that I have made some mistakes, I need to re-evaluate.

Lyman data says a COL of 1.115" is called for in a 125 grain lead Alloy #2. My alloy is not quite that hard as I use a 95/2.5/2.5 mix.

I need to do a little more research. I do know one thing for sure, 1.125" or anything longer will not work in the Ruger chamber. It must be shorter or the top ring has to be removed. The only way to get to 1.115" is to seat mostly over the top ring.

That top ring wold be the driving band and in this case, it shouldn't hurt anything even if you seated down enough to put a slight roll crimp over just the leading edge or lip of it, as long as you adjust your powder charge down a tad to compensate for it. Like I mentioned what you give in one area, you have to take from another, to keep things somewhat even.

Universal should be, (haven't looked at the data,) a bit more user friendly, but then again I haven't used TG myself. Universal is stated by many to be pretty much equal to Unique but cleaner burning. I have a can of it but haven't had time to work with it yet. SOON I hope.

Your on the right track, just hit a fork int he road. It happens, thats why there are some many variations in data from one source to another. Sometimes however you still hit a snag and simply have to adjust for it.

With the alloy your using I agree throws a bit heavier bullet than the #2 does. If you have a bit more percent lead it will throw a bit heavier still. The good thing is that "LEAD" will absorb quite a bit more pressure before giving you anything extreme unlike jacketed, the downside though is that it usually shows up as leading from mild to severe. Leading however is a repetitively easy fix.

David Bachelder · February 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

I bought a new Taurus PT709 Slim in 9mm today. It should make me a nice carry pistol.

I took a few of the Lead Cast 9mm reloads that were giving me such a fit in the BlackHawk and loaded the Taurus clip just to see if they would cycle.

They cycle perfectly. They still will not fit in the BlackHawk. They are .052" too long to chamber.

Heres the load data:
9mm (sized to .056") 125 grain (actual average weight) Lead Round nose bullet
Hodgdon Universal at 4.2 grains (Powder range, 3.8 to 4.3)
Small Pistol Primer
COL @ 1.25"

Hodgdon calls for a LCN bullet. I assume that means Lead Conical Nose?

February 12, 2013, 07:49 AM	#4
David Bachelder Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2011 Location: Trinity, Texas Posts: 636	"If loaded with the Hodgdon data are they the start load or max load or somewhere in between?" The bullets actual weight averages 125 grains. So I'm using mid range data for both Titegroup and Hodgdon Universal. "Are you using the top ring as an actual crimp groove or simply seating them up to it for a taper crimp?" I was seating the bullets to a COAL of 1.125" This fell just under the top ring. I can see that I have made some mistakes, I need to re-evaluate. Lyman data says a COL of 1.115" is called for in a 125 grain lead Alloy #2. My alloy is not quite that hard as I use a 95/2.5/2.5 mix. I need to do a little more research. I do know one thing for sure, 1.125" or anything longer will not work in the Ruger chamber. It must be shorter or the top ring has to be removed. The only way to get to 1.115" is to seat mostly over the top ring. __________________ David Bachelder Trinity, Texas I load, 9mm Luger, 38 and 40 S&W, 38 Special, 357Magnum, 45ACP, 45 Colt, 223, 300 AAC, 243 and 30-06

February 12, 2013, 09:03 AM	#5
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Are they longer than a factory 115 grain FMJ? What is the listed shortest depth you can seat them at? Since feeding in a semi auto is not a concern i would seat them shorter at the starting load then work up. Wirh 9mm just a taper crimp to remove the flare is all that is needed. Do not worry about the crimp groove. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 13, 2013, 08:07 PM	#7
David Bachelder Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2011 Location: Trinity, Texas Posts: 636	I bought a new Taurus PT709 Slim in 9mm today. It should make me a nice carry pistol. I took a few of the Lead Cast 9mm reloads that were giving me such a fit in the BlackHawk and loaded the Taurus clip just to see if they would cycle. They cycle perfectly. They still will not fit in the BlackHawk. They are .052" too long to chamber. Heres the load data: 9mm (sized to .056") 125 grain (actual average weight) Lead Round nose bullet Hodgdon Universal at 4.2 grains (Powder range, 3.8 to 4.3) Small Pistol Primer COL @ 1.25" Hodgdon calls for a LCN bullet. I assume that means Lead Conical Nose? __________________ David Bachelder Trinity, Texas I load, 9mm Luger, 38 and 40 S&W, 38 Special, 357Magnum, 45ACP, 45 Colt, 223, 300 AAC, 243 and 30-06

February 11, 2013, 08:07 PM	#2
Vance Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2011 Location: North Bend, OR Posts: 743	I just looked up 9mm 124gr LRN loads on hogdon and they specify a COL of 1.169.

February 12, 2013, 05:46 AM	#3
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	Are these already loaded rounds or just dummy rounds for test purposes? If loaded with the Hodgdon data are they the start load or max load or somewhere in between? Are you using the top ring as an actual crimp groove or simply seating them up to it for a taper crimp? To be honest if it were me, and I were only going to use this in a BH, I would simply and seat them in until they just did fit the cylinder length. Then I would check that measurement against the noted measurement in a couple of manuals or listed online lengths as well as the corresponding data. I would probably then note the start load data for the shortest listed lengths, bearing in mind that this would probably now be within the max load range of my now deeper seated bullet, and back off about two tenths of a grain or so, and use that as a start load. The thing with the 9mm is that it's a higher pressure caliber and the seating depth usually plays a role in the pressure. It can get squirrely when you seat bullets deaper than they should be with some powders. So if your seating deeper than the listed lenght you need to have some give and take with the powder to compensate for the now diminished area behind the bullet. That said, #1 your using a lead bullet which will not build pressure nearly as fast as a jacketed," in most cases." #2 your using a light for caliber bullet as well which should also aid in reducing pressure build up to some extent. #3 your running these in a BH and not using them in an auto action pistol which may or may not have a fully supported chamber. That's not to say that you can't blow a cylinder out of a BH, but by going with a slight reduction in charge to allow for the deeper seating depth, and using cast bullets, your chances are slim to none. This is simply MY take on your situation. I have used this same thought process in the past for finding loads with bullets which I had no data for. It isn't scientific, nor is it guaranteed, but I have never blown anything up being careful to adjust the charge to accommodate the more or less weight, and area the bullet might take up in the cases. Just a few thoughts on how I might go about this if it were me. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX