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Old November 10, 2002, 10:21 PM   #26
tag
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The pages of history are full of dead heroes.

While your honor and dignity may require you to defend your tv and dvd player, a wise man would better choose his battles. Drawing from concealment, against an armed intruder with an unknown number of accomplices, is not the smartest decision. While your intentions are honorable, there is no reason to force yourself into this situation based on some misguided sense of honor. Saving your own skin doesn't make you any less of a man, hero or patriot. Sometimes, even the best of us have to retreat.
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Old November 11, 2002, 02:30 AM   #27
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Better to be a dead hero then a living slave.

By your logic, the Founding Fathers fought and died to be free from taxation, in actuality, taxation far less offensive then that paid by the average Londoner of the period.

The physical circumstances of the fight were immaterial, it was a battle over principle.
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Old November 11, 2002, 10:37 AM   #28
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Your comparison between the our liberation from the English and defending your television is ridicilous and is meant for nothing more than dramatic effect. Think of it this way: a war is nothing more than a group of battles. Do you think that our founding fathers sent the troops into battle to "do or die" no matter what the odds? Do you think that we never retreated when the odds weren't in our favor? If you do, you need to go back and retake your elementary school history class.

In order to win the war, sometimes you fight, sometimes you retreat and sometimes (gasp!) you don' fight at all. A smart man picks his battles wisely and knows when to fight, when to retreat and when to provide recon. Using our scenario as an example, you have walked into your own home to discover AT LEAST two men robbing the place. AT LEAST one of them is armed. Your hands are full of packages and your firearm is concealed. The man that is obviously armed is carrying a shotgun, which means his aim doesn't have to be all that great to put you in a grave. Are there other BGs in the house? What about out in the car acting as lookout? Since you know that your family is not at home there is nothing in the house worth dying for. Are you so fast a draw that you can draw and shoot a man who has a weapon in his hand? Doubtful (most of us aren't.) Even if you do hit him, what about his friend? What about his other friend around the corner that you didn't see.

By retreating to a safe location and calling in renforcements, not only do you save your own butt, but you put yourself is a better position to get physical descriptions, liscence plate, vehicle descriptions and direction of travel after leaving the scene. Still itchin' to get into a gunfight? A quick retreat allows you to find cover (not concealment, like your interior walls) and return fire from a fortified position. This is far preferable that standing in the front door and shooting it out like an idiot.

Do you actually think that dying in your front door is going to make some grand statement about "taking back the streets" or defending our turf? Unlikely. Instead, it will be reported in the news as a home invasion gone wrong, and the media and anti-gunners will use it as an example of another gung-ho fool who got himself killed trying to kill some poor, disadvantaged youths who were forced to defend themselves.

Wise men tread lightly where fools rush in (or something like that)
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Old November 11, 2002, 01:54 PM   #29
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First, I'd take the frag grenades out of my grocery bag and throw one in...ok, just kidding .

I'd drop the groceries, pull my CCW while retreating to cover, then take out the cell phone and dial 911. I'm not going to try to draw on and engage a guy with a shotgun in his hands, especially when I don't know whom else might be either inside the house or outside the house. Just because I only see 2 guys, that doesn't mean there aren't more. So, I get the heck out, dial 911, and continue to move and retreat.
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Old November 11, 2002, 04:14 PM   #30
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Tag: Do not lecture me about history. The Founding Fathers were fighting over property rights essentially, but more then that, they were fighting over intangibles, principles. That was my point. Oh, and by the way, the odds were NEVER in the Americans' favor during the Revolution. One would think that a history expert such as yourself would have recognized that.

Itgoesboom makes a good point, you are already engaged, with little chance for a tactical withdrawl. This scenario is a sticky one, and there is no need to vilify those who would act in their best judgment to engage a threat to their life, who is standing no more then 20 feet away with a shotgun. Possessions notwithstanding, I am in fear for my life, so I will take any appropriate measures to neutralize that threat. If that means drawing and engaging the first threat while he is in condition white, so be it.

And for your "there may be hordes of bgs around" argument, any lookout outside would probably notice you on the way in, or the way out. It would suck to get shot in the back by the thug behind you, while retreating from your house and any cover you may have had now, wouldn't it?
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Old November 11, 2002, 05:23 PM   #31
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Why does everyone think the TV is the first to go???

Mine is one wheels, and is 60" of viewing pleasure...It is insured, and I would get an even better replacement for the money...

I see a lot of people on this thread state they would retreat and observe...Certainly call the law to catch them, but engaging when they (untill they saw you) were not a direct threat to you to begin with...

Of course the natural (knee-jerk) reaction would be: "HOW DARE YOU BREAK INTO MY HOME AND TRY TO STEAL MY STUFF!"

This is something we should all come to expect, and should all attempt to quell when the real deal happens...

The most important thing to remember is that you DO have the means to deal with any dangerous threat to you in the most decisive way...Thats half the battle...

The hard part is that that does not mean you are invincible, even people like Massad Ayoob understand that its just a matter of mind over matter...Someone breaks into your home armed...They have already made the decision, that no matter what happens, if they hear or see a threat, they don't hesitate...

I can almost guarantee that in a senario like this, the first gunshots are going to come from the bad guys...Second, if you're not quick enough, you may be in trouble...

Third...Nothing in your home that is not living and breathing is worth taking a life...That does not mean if it shoots first, all bets are off...I can think of a great variety of things to say (and not to say) if that is the outcome...Because if it did happen like that...I would do every thing I could to be the one left standing, all else is secondary...

This is always the hardest thing to realize...And its the hardest thing to let go...Nobody can make a decision for you in this regard...And there is no way to prepare for it...When the time comes, how the thing between your ears works is just as deadly as the thing on your hip...

Remember, and this is not meant to discourage, but the one left standing (and I hope its one of us, in a senario like this) has to live with that decision...And that is not necessarily a bad thing...

Me? I happen to have a hard time with things like this, but I know in the end, if I were you, regardless of the outcome...I'm going home and sleeping in my own bed that night...Thats what makes it easy, regardless of the decision you make...
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Old November 11, 2002, 08:05 PM   #32
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I find it hilarious that you equate your tv being stolen with the struggle for our freedom from the British. This is the point I am trying to make. Its obvious that the only reason you're making this comparison is for dramatic effect. I'll try to leave this out of my future arguments and quit fueling the fire. If you wish, e-mail me offline and I will suggest some reading material you didn't read last semester in American History.

You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.

Think of it this way: if you end up dead, what happens to the BGs? Nothing. They still get your stuff, plus "street cred" for killing a stupid college kid with a gun. Your family struggles because you aren't there to protect them and provide for them. Your principals die with you. But hey, at least you died a man, right? That's really all your talking about; some misguided macho attitude that "real men don't run from a fight." Your a big history buff, huh? What did the British think about the Americans who shot at them from the tree lines and ambushed their processions? They thought they were cowards for not fighting out in the open as had been the traditional way of war for hundreds or thousands of years. Guess its a good thing that our founding fathers weren't afraid of the coward label.

Who's to say you can't still have your principals AND save your own skin? Personally, I would rather live AND help put these guys in jail than die and let them go free. Your not doing society any good by bleeding to death in your doorway. There are other ways to stand up to crime than to square off and draw down with every bad guy you see.

You are right about the BG in the car. He's probably already seen you. Better that you distract yourself with shooting his buddies and make it easier to put one in the back of your head. All those people who say a moving target is harder to hit are fools anyway.

Now please, if you are going to continue this argument, stop trying to compare you tv being stolen to the fight for this country's freedom, or raping and beating innocent women and children. I'm still waiting for you to draw some correlation between your tv and 9-11.
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Old November 11, 2002, 09:15 PM   #33
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First off, I did not equate the American Revolution and this violent home invasion in scope or magnitude. It's so much more then a television, I didn't ever suggest one take a stupid stand for a tv. I was arguing that principles play into all decisions in life. Besides, while you're obviously a history buff, you must have never heard of the rhetorical device of hyperbole. However, this was not my only reason for bringing up the argument, I was stating that the Founders were not suffering incredibly terrible physical abuse at the hands of the British. Their lives were not threatened to the point that they were forced to fight, they were fighting for principles. If you can't understand the concept of following one's principles in all circumstances, however minor, then I will agree to foregore continuing this line of argument in favor of returning to the issue at hand. But don't patronize me, I don't want to get into a pissing contest over who knows more history.

Quote:
You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.
That is completely uncalled for. Did I ever once suggest not taking cover, no. Did I ever suggest that when the SHTF, that everything will go alright, no. I infact made no suggestion as to exactly how to engage the targets, merely that I would rather then taking flight from my home. I left the discussions of the bare bones of how to engage to the more knowledgeable armchair gunfighters her. What guarantees do you have that you will succeed in your plans? It's an uncertain world we live in. Back off with the arrogance buddy.

Throughout this debate your arguments have been characterized by vitriolic attacks on my character, intelligence, age, principles, and arguments. You have put words in my mouth, you have twisted my arguments into straw men, and been condescending, all the while claiming moral superiority. If you want to continue this debate on an intellectual level, when we can discuss issues rather then ad hominem attacks, fine, I'll be here. If you can't defend your principles without stooping to junior high tactics of namecalling, then come back when you grow up.
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Old November 11, 2002, 09:53 PM   #34
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Sorry if you were offended, I'm not used to dealing with people who are so sensitive. Sometimes I use sarcasm with people to demonstrate the outrageousness of their statements. Seems like it worked this time. But don't blame me for taking this path, you're the one that brought up the founding fathers. That was insulting to everyone who had replied that they would retreat, as it implied that they were unpatriotic, cowardly and that the founding fathers would only approve of a full-on assault. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe if you had skipped the rhetoric and dealt with the scenario at hand we could have avoided this little disagreement.

I'm glad that you quoted that section of my previous post, because it means I made my point. These are the types of things that have to be considered in every scenario where you choose to use a gun for self defense. Since you won't have time to think about them at the time of the incident, you have to be willing to think about them now. It's Murphy's Law, and if something can go wrong, it will. At best, the scenario gave you a split second to react, since there are multiple assailants and one of them had a gun in hand. Since you are still standing in the door, retreat is the best option.

I took a training class last year, and part of the class was an ATM scenario using Sims guns. I was playing the bank customer approaching the ATM to withdraw some money. As I got up to the ATM, I noticed a BG lurking behind the corner, about 20 ft away. I quickly decided that this was an unsafe situation, and made a quick retreat while keeping an eye on the BG. I drew my pistol while retreating, just in case he came after me. Now, I could have stood my ground on the principal that it was my money in that machine and no one could keep me from it, but I didn't. BTW, everyone that stood their ground and withdrew money ended up shot and killed. I have been through alot of this type of training, and it has helped me understand that you can never be prepared for everything, the odds are usually against you, and sometimes a good defense is the best offense. You should try some Sims or FATS training and you will see what I mean.

It's great to see a young person with such strong convictions in his principals, but you need to temper them with a little common sense. Charging into every situation waving your principals like a banner will do nothing but get you beaten, humiliated or killed.
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Old November 11, 2002, 11:43 PM   #35
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First, I was not offended at all. Besides, it would take a heck of a lot more then that to offend me. I myself enjoy the use of sarcasm, both as a humor style, and to make points. However, your sarcasm was directed at a caricature of my argument, and not the real one. I do believe my point still stands. I was not directly a personal attack at anyone here, but rather the whole idea that in violent confrontations, one must suffer almost anything before using deadly force, a view which I believe contributes to the victimization of our society.

While it is not a sense of false bravado or machismo which prompted my original comment, I am man enough to apologize for any offense given. If you were insulted, for that I apologize. I'm here to engage in rational, albeit somewhat heated discussion. Sometimes youthful enthusiasm is mistaken for arrogance or rashness. While I still stand by my argument, I want to make it clear that I am interested in constructive discussion, and have most definately considered the issue thoughtfully.

To make you happy, I won't even mention the idea that the people in the first two planes on 9/11 likely went along with the hijackers because of a misguided view that "If we go along we won't get killed." But I won't even bring that up. (BtW, this was in no way directed at anyone here, but rather the sheeple in our society.

I value the comments made in your second paragraph, that's what I like to see, a reasonable discussion of the issue. The focus on thinking things through prior to the event is one of the things that drew me to TFL. While I may disagree with your conclusion, I believe we all benefit from a rational discussion.

I appreciate the advice for pursuit of practical training. As soon as my budget and schedule permit (spending lots of time in remedial US history will hurt ), I plan to do so. Most of the time in these scenario threads I sit by quietly and observe what the older and wiser have to say. I do enjoy playing devil's advocate, and was trying to make a point that would not attack others, but hopefully prompt some thoughts, and I hope that you look at the article I linked to, it has some great points. There was so much of a non-confrontational attitude portrayed in the thread, I thought I'd spice up the intellectual debate with a few comments. I hope they haven't gotten out of hand on either side.

Lastly, I never intend to charge into any situation half-cocked, waving a suicidal banner of mistaken principles. Far from being a reckless kid, I have devoted more time to studying the great minds of personal defense, from both the legal and tactical side, then most CCW holders I know. I believe that when I do get my CCW, I will be both a concerned citizen with not only street smarts, but a rational argument for why I believe what I believe, and do what I do. I've enjoyed our exchange, and hope that we all may have learned from it. While I firmly stand by my position as strongly as ever, I think the emotion on both sides has gotten out of hand. Let's get back to discussing this lose-lose scenario, shall we?
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Old November 12, 2002, 11:20 PM   #36
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I would touch my communicator and say "beam my up Scotty!"

Seriously….take cover as I draw and then assess the situation. Preferably, don’t let them know you have a gun (let them think your one of the sheeple) your out gunned and will need the element of suprize if they advance on your position.

Attempting a quick draw is the least desirable situation because even in a tie…you loose!
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Old November 14, 2002, 01:48 AM   #37
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Here in Colorado we have the "make my day law".

In your house ANY force is justified and you are immune from criminal and civil prosecution.

In my house these guys would be the unluckiest burglars in the world.

MF with the scatter gun gets scattered then BG with [color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color] in pants gets scattered next.

Move inside with big evil grin.
Reload and finish both the BGs off.

Hard pressed on my right.
My center is yielding.
Impossible to maneuver.
Situation excellent, I am attacking!

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Old November 14, 2002, 03:38 AM   #38
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Who can say till it happens, but, I get the feeling my first inclination would be to duck out of there.
Not necessarily from any tactical negotiations standpoint, premeditated or ptherwise, but simply because - holy ___ - there's guys in there with GUNZ!!
Once back outside, I guess I'd draw the gun and the phone (practice that supportside dialing folks!) and assess.
Depending on the day, and how my religious sentiments were holding up, I may or may not go around the otherside to recon.
If they're just stealing my stuff, I can't kill them.
-But that might just be on a count of all the stuff I stole when I was a young and stupid heathen.

Plus, my guess is they're turning tail at this point, and either they're on foot or I've got their tags, so nothing major is going very far.

Major mitigating factor: do I see they've got my firearm(s).

Another way it might go (again, not so much from a what-would-you-do standpoint, more just how I see it unfolding) is for me to weigh that 15 yards against the whiteness of #2's condition and rush him, while #1 decides where he stands and does something with the tv. (Remember Tueller.)
I'm willing to bet I have more H2H training than this guy, and can have him down and hurting before he can bear his weapon.
After that I choose either the CW or shotgun against #1 depending on his mood (most likely the CW, since I know it runs).

Final note, I doubt I could make it through my door with this guy's hand still in the drawer. It takes at least 3 seconds of fumbling to get through a door, even in condition yellow. Most likely I'd have a much clearer idea of who was armed and how serious they were - a view that might last a half-second or so....
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Old November 14, 2002, 04:31 PM   #39
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Some folks have sort of flamed me for being a Ninja / revolution minuteman for my response which included opening fire on these guys, from cover.

My experience with burglars was over 12 years ago in another house we owned being broken into 3 times in 12 months by the same burglar, and nearly surprising them the second time.

You all have heard of armed home invasions right??

most burglars watch the house and try to break in when you are not there, at work or somewhere that you will not return from unpredictably. They do not come armed, let alone with a shotgun that will reduce the amount of booty they can carry out and sell.

There are the home invasion types though who want to find you at home and beat or even kill you, and they try to break in when you are home. I would put the burglars in this case in that category. They are armed and have not picked a time when my regular habits would put me at work. I assume they are looking for me, and will come back. I also assume they are not experts with a firearm who practice twice a week as I do.

I will have the drop on them, I will take cover and engage.
Self preservation is my motive here. Whos to say the next time that they will not ambush me when I get out of my car with my wife and kids.

JMHO YMMV.
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Old November 14, 2002, 10:09 PM   #40
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MASTER BLASTER gave all the good reasons and I could not agree with him more!!

You train, you get a CCW permit, you spend money on a pistol and ammo and range time, you take classes and you practise your draw from concealment. You carry a 'tactical folder' and dream of a smooth tac reload...

You rave endlessly about civil liberties and rights on forums.

You wail that the only way the BATfmen are getting your guns are bullets first.

The moment two little [color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color][color=#FF0000]â–ˆ[/color]s come uninvited into your house you pee your pants and run. What happened to back bone and mind set. You want to call the cops and send them in to protect YOUR house. That is sick!

"Well that's their job!" "I could get sued!" "I have a family to think of!"
I'm amazed it was possible to procreate!

You want guys to fly to Afganhistan and "Kick ass."
Crawl into a dark cave and find Bin Laden, when you aren't prepared to protect your own home, imagine if all the courageous men (and women) in the service thought like you.

If it was my wife coming to the door she has standing orders to move as quickly as possible to safety.

I don't have that luxury it is my responsibility to protect my home.

"A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well." Proverbs 25:26

"And all the time - such is the tragic comedy of our situation - we continue to clamor for those very qualities we are rendering impossible. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."
C.S.Lewis

Now this post may indeed piss some of you off. Good!
Just like my CT instructor pissed me off we he said I button holed doors like a scared rabbit.

Well I have calmed down now.

Flame away.

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Old November 14, 2002, 11:36 PM   #41
tag
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Now were quoting bible passages? Good grief.

If you have such convictions about defending your home, why aren't you willing for your wife to risk her life? Get her some training, get her a pistol, a few spare mags and a cood ccw rig and let her make her own stand for justice. Bullets from a woman's gun work the same as they do from a man's. Or do your principals only count for men? Can't a woman die for "freedom?"

Of course, the reason you would tell your wife to run and hide is you don't think her life is worth wasting to save a TV. But your misplaced sense of machismo REQUIRES you to risk your life. Of course, it helps if you picture yourself fighting along with the soliders in Afganistan, or maybe that Bin Laden himself is stealing your TV. Or you quote bible verses and picture yourself doing god's work.

Master Blaster, how do you figure that these guys are trying to find you at home, when they clearly broke in while you were out and don't seem to be lying in wait for your return? At least you chose to take cover first and not just to blast away from the doorway.
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Old November 14, 2002, 11:55 PM   #42
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Wow! you all are amazing. I would run like crazy, call the police, then call my insurance company and get new stuff. Pretty simple huh? Stay alive and get new stuff, DUH!!!!

You all have been watching too many movies!!!!!!
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Old November 15, 2002, 09:30 AM   #43
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When I was burglarized the police arrived and they knew who the burglar was right away they knew his name record and where he lived.

The Officer said

"****** ****** he's a one man crime wave he breaks into three houses a day"

That was the first time the second time the Officer said:

"So ****** **** broke in again, yeah we cant catch him in the act cause he's so slick (this is a 17 yearold who is already a drug dealer burglar fence and a juvy hall resident) He's a regular Fagen"

I said what if he comes back again when we are home, the dtective lifted his coat and said get one of these (357 mag S&W revolver)
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Old November 15, 2002, 09:44 AM   #44
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Master Blaster, you are a brave soul. Here is a little first person story for you to describe your situation.

Yes, we were watching your house to see when you would leave. You left and we broke in. Time is short and we are all in a need of a fix. It is critical we find the valuables that we will exchange for crack. We will do anything to get it, but we aren't completely stupid as we have done this many times before. WE may not be organized in the sense you may think, but we do have a plan, simple as it may be.

I see you return with your wife. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough to warn my buddies because I did not expect you so soon. You open the door and see Frankie and Guido. The look of surprise on Guido's face is funny as it is contorted by the weight of the TV.

Apparently you have experienced strong target fixation. You think you have seen the whole group, but you have only seen the two who were immediately visible when you opened the door. I laugh to myself as you think you are going to be some hero, pushing your wife out of the way, beating your chest like a big gorilla to announce that you are a he-man, then drawing your weapon and send your TV to hell with hopes of hitting Guido and Frankie?

You move quick, but I move even quicker and you don't even see me. As your gun comes out, I am already showering your with 9 mm rounds from my Tech 9. You never even see me as the first of the bullets strike your back. Your wife now cries out as she is splattered with your blood and I quickly turn the gun on her. By now Frankie is shooting wildly, striking you only once in the chest with a shotgun blast as you fall from my bullets.

No doubt the shots have have alerted the neighbors and we will be leaving soon. I quickly run over and strip the keys from your hand, your gun as well, which looks nice. Your wife's rings go in my pocket and we are soon on our way. It would have been a lot easier if you hadn't come home, but we still did well.

It was funny to watch, at first, the way you wanted to play the hero. You had no idea I was even behind you. You never saw me step out from between the houses. You never saw me as I landed shots in your back. Your wife saw me, but she won't be telling anybody about it now, will she.

Thanks for the gun and thanks for the car. How funny! You thought you would be a hero and you never knew I was there. We'll be stoned tonight and you will be stone cold.
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Old November 15, 2002, 03:31 PM   #45
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Double Naught You are right.

You sound just like the antis I hear on TV saying that no one can successfully defend themselves with a firearm. You are more likely to shoot yourself with that dangerous gun.
Its completely foolish to defend your self or your home.
Run away and dial 911

Because no matter what the situation you will never have full knowlege or a guarrantee of the outcome.
There could at any time in any situation be an unseen third or fourth acomplice with a Belt fed BAR, or even a tech nine waiting for you to defend your self.

The runny nosed addict who confronts you at the ATM, the burglar who breaks in the middle of the night, or the example given here.

Suppose that I turn tail immediately and run as fast as I can and dial 911. Right down the street is the third man with a Belt fed BAR he opens up on me the minute I exit the house. Or he has a 10" kitchen Knife and he is hiding in the bushes. Did you know this would be his third arrest and there is no way he is ever going to jail again? I have now seen them I could be a witness. Oh well running and cowering would be suicidal HUH?

I suggest that you send all of your guns and ammo to me so you can cower in a corner and suck your thumb.




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Old November 15, 2002, 04:31 PM   #46
HS/LD
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Range Drill!

When I go to the range (with my wife who has a CCW permit and is an accomplished pistolero - tag) I like to practise this drill:

I stand squarely in front of a target down range, my handgun loaded almost to overflowing with the ultimate one shot knock down carry ammo. I super high grade ultra tactical folder made from kryptonite on the the other hip. I growl, get the warrior mindset, visualise detroying my enemy. I like the targets that show the bad guy with his gun out and a particularly frightening scowl on. I get ready, I scowl right back.....

...then bam quick as lightening I run out of the range while speed dialing 911!!

Give me break we have enough ducking and running in this world.

HS/LD

tag - is it ok to quote C.S Lewis and Ferdinand Foch but the moment I quote the bible..... good grief? I'm an agnostic and still find the ocassional drop of wisdom in the bible. I didn't realise this was the liberals forum. Where I am not allowed to mention religion.
Sorry if you were offended, I'm not used to dealing with people who are so sensitive.

HS/LD
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Old November 15, 2002, 05:01 PM   #47
CULLENIII
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Start shooting ---retreating to vehicle calling 911 and bringing in heavier car guns to bear.
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Old November 15, 2002, 11:09 PM   #48
tag
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Your right. How could I expect someone who fancys himself an operator to retreat? Surely your multiple layers of body armor would deflect the shotgun pellets while you brought your MP5 from low ready, closed distance to the target, double tap, switch tangos, double tap, scan, tac reload and call clear to your wife who is covering your 6.

Some people are just too dense to realize that there are actually some situations where retreat is the best option. Facing an opponent with shotgun in hand is probably one of them. Even if you just retreat to suitable to cover to return fire, its better than standing in the door and drawing down like a fool. Unless, of course, you're high speed / low drag.

Everything you say, even your chosen screen name, just reinforces the fact that your decision is based on nothing more that some misguided macho bull poopy.

If your wife has a CCW, why is she not required to make the same stand that you are? Because she's a woman? Do women have no honor since they are allowed to run and hide? If she is so accomplished, she could easily dispacth these BG's, right? We should all be willing to die for our tv's, unless we are married to a wannabe operator, I guess.


CONTACT RIGHT! ENGAGE! TANGO DOWN! CLEAR!
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Old November 16, 2002, 12:10 AM   #49
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Master Blaster, not an anti, not by a long shot. I am just merely pointing out a blatant lack of situational awareness.

As for protecting one's home, home insurance is a fine thing. It isn't as if the bad guys are actually stealing your home, just a few items inside. Why fight for things of such limited value that would be covered by insurance? The bad guys will be leaving soon enough anyway, so the situation is temporary.

The best defense is to simply not be there. While I do not suggest that you don't have a right to defend your things, but in doing so in the situation described means putting yourself in additional danger for meager items.

As for your scenario where the BAR opens up on you, maybe, maybe not. While the burglars may not be the brightest guys, if they do have a lookout covering their situation, he is unlikely to open up on you if you have not already shot. The reason why is that gunshots will bring attention to the situation and an immediacy that would otherwise not be present.

IN the scenario, you are in the doorway and the guy you know who has the shotgun (the only known gun of the bad guys) has it by his side. He is not ready to shoot any direction, much less at you. You have the opportunity at that moment to immediately be out of view simply by sidestepping from the doorway on the outside. If you have a brink house, that means you have not only gained concealment, but also cover. In other words, you could be out of sight long before either had a chance to shoot you. In just a few seconds, you would be completely removed from that situation. One of the best ways to survive a fight is to not even be at the fight. This could be achieved very quickly.

Now, had the situation been different, say where you were inside the house before you realized intruders were present, you obviously would not be able to extact yourself from the situation with any such ease as in the original stated scenario. Without being able to gain distance and cover nearly as well as in the original situation, the context of being in the same room with the bad guys means that you in definite peril. Without possible quick escape, no doubt then the time is upon you to protect your life. Here, starting the battle is to your benefit because if you don't, they will and your chances won't be great if that happens. You will not have the benefit of increasing your distance to target by any significant amount and likely won't have much in the way of cover. If you get to blast first and score a hit, maybe even neutralizing your first threat, the odds of the immediate fight within the room have just jumped remendously for you from 2:1 to 1:1.

For the original scenario, even with the rights to start blasting being perfectly legal in your particular state (it would be here in Texas as I understand it), why start a fight that will undoubtedly put your life at risk for a few material items when you don't have to do so?

There are other benefits as well if you don't start the fight and egress out of the situation post haste. First, you don't have to deal with the cops endless questioning, potential arrest (at least until they get things sorted out completely), confiscation of your weapon for an indefinite amount of time, the biohazard of the blood spills, occupation by the police of your home for many hours, the expenses of having carpeting, furniture, walls, drapes, etc. professionally cleaned and decontaminated or replaced, etc. All of that is going to cost you a lot of time and expense to get things settled. Maybe insurance will pay for the cleanup and replacement, maybe not as the reason for the blood was actually caused by you. If you do shoot and/or kill people in your home, probably the last thing that may bother you even more than knowing bad guys were snooping around your home is that the cops are going to be all over it, looking through everything to determine exactly what the bad guys were doing and to find out if your story is substantiated. So not only did you lose some privacy to the burglars, but now you have lost privacy to the police and the information may make it into public record.

And to think had you just egressed away, the time the cops would have spent there would have been much less, your insurance company dealings would have been less complicated, and your life would have gotten back to normal much more quickly.

An anti perspective? Nope, I don't think so. Fighting smarter sometimes means not fighting at all and any time you have the option of leaving a potential lethal confrontation situation physically unharmed, you are way ahead of the game.
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Old November 16, 2002, 10:24 AM   #50
tag
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Quote:
...Fighting smarter sometimes means not fighting at all and any time you have the option of leaving a potential lethal confrontation situation physically unharmed, you are way ahead of the game....
Very well said.
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