The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 22, 2006, 10:53 AM   #76
BILLDAVE
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2006
Location: In the Mid-West
Posts: 321
You don't have to kill him, just hold him down and cut off his "johnson"!! He'll be harless then. But I also think a face to face talk will work also. Which I think is definatley PC!
BILLDAVE is offline  
Old October 22, 2006, 06:45 PM   #77
claude783
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2004
Location: people's republic of California
Posts: 386
Many a year ago, when I was much younger, stupid, and yes crazy, I had a dear "girl" friend that had the problem of a pervert in her neighborhood.

Seems she caught him trying to come into the bathroom window when she was showering, also some other problems with the perv. I went over to his house and the discussion went something, like "****" you, etc....not a nice man to try and deal with.

Soooo, somehow an ad ened up in the Sunday Morning paper...Seems someone advertised a Harley Flathead, mint condition, owner needed cash, first $500 would buy it...About 5 a.m. I get a phone call, and Cindy, says "you did something, didn't you". Of course I'm innocent, but she invited me over, fixed me breakfast as we watched "hells' angels" types come to the door, hour after hour. The guy wants to prove how "bad" he is, these were just the right people to talk to...of course many of them were a little disturbed to find out he didn't have the bike "anymore".

And, many of them had just left the bar, high on "God" knows what, to go and see this bike...the early edition of most papers come out about 4 a.m. So, bleary eyed, he answered the door at 5 a.m. and pretended to not know what in heck they were talking about...Cindy mentioned that there was a lot of shouting, screaming, and she thought she heard a couple of "begging" pleas "Don't hurt me, I don't know what's going on!"

On Monday, a U-haul was in his driveway, and by Tuesday, he was gone to parts unknown...as I sat on Cindy's porch waving good by to him!

The above account of my mis-spent youth is purely fiction,,, heh, heh
claude783 is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 06:39 AM   #78
Running Gunfight
Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2004
Posts: 71
My advice is that she learn to protect herself.

I always recall the story many years ago about a female deputy who was followed going home in her car one night (obviously not from work or the knuckleheads would have found somebody else--or they saw her in her car and started tailing her without seeing where she came from).

Anyhow, they didn't know she was armed and knew how to use it.

They pulled into her driveway behind her, made an abduction attempt, and were both shot dead. The end.
Running Gunfight is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 09:19 AM   #79
Daves-got-guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2006
Location: Marysville Washington
Posts: 291
you know, with women things can get very very messy indeed, and i would stay the hell out of it honestly. I know its nice to try to stick up for poor defenseless random broad a, and despite what they may say they loooove that kind of deal. I got a couson, whos always gettin herself into some stupid mess, and oddly im never around when the brown stuff hits the fan. If i were to go about such business as you described, including the waiting with the door unlocked approach, i wouldnt have asked even a cop about it, and if such a man came thru the door, i for some reason just had my shotgun fully loaded with 00 buck at her house, and this guy, had maybe a knife on him? or w/e, you catch the drift Honestly, even though they pretty much id'd a documented sex offender, in the same area as all of this you still can't be %100 its not just a cawinkie dink. Also you could try something of the similar measure, but instead of killing him why not take him out back and beat the you know awhat out of him. That method works, as there was a case of a guy harassing the mother of a friend i had, years ago. The guy was a ex b/f trying to steal more crap from the house, and the mothers friends got a hold of the guy in a church parking lot, a block away from the house and 2 blocks away from my house, and beat the guy into the hospital. Imo taking a human life, even a low life like this is something that you may feel you want to do, but after you do it your not gonna feel that great about it, because he was still human.
Daves-got-guns is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 09:54 AM   #80
SD_Chop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2006
Location: Va, USA
Posts: 474
So i have to lock my door to defend myself some are saying? If i leave my door unlock is that "inviting"? I dont get that, why was it said that you left your door unlocked is baiting?? I should be able to leave my house ANY way i want too with whatever girl inside, if someone steps through the door with any intention to do any harm, church is over. I disagree, its not baiting at all. Obviously local LE couldnt do anything about, so what was it gonna take?? For the guy to catch the girl, rape and possibly kill her? Would that be enough for someone to take action?
__________________
Liberty or Death...
SD_Chop is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 10:50 AM   #81
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,840
This is an interesting thread

It really comes down to three things. 1. it is not legal to bait humans in order to hurt or kill them 2. it is OK to use deadly force to stop the immediate threat of death or great bodily harm 3. never post what you intend to do along these lines on the internet, this is not a private forum, authorities seize computers on a regular basis during investigations.

I hope the young lady remains safe and secure and that no drastic action is ever needed to accomplish this.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 08:50 PM   #82
FLA2760
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2005
Location: Hernando County, Florida
Posts: 574
Have the woman get training and arm herself. Print up flyers about the SOB so all the other people living near this guy are aware a registered sex offender is in their neighborhood.
__________________
STEVE, NRA LIFE MEMBER; Member GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA
What part of "shall not be infringed" does the Democratic Party not understand?
FLA2760 is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 09:34 PM   #83
Daves-got-guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2006
Location: Marysville Washington
Posts: 291
also get a damn mean guard dog. I know why people think its baiting, because he said ok were gonna wait for him to come thru, and shoot him down. It sounds like oh i just want to kill somebody, but thats not the intent. Obviously, besides the fact of retalliation, you could confront the guy and do your damndest scare off tactic, but that probably won't do. Also he seems clever, or you guys were clunky in your attempt to conceal in her house. If it still persists, have a couple people over one night, and then have everybodys cars leave, and just one or maybe 2 of you stay in her house hidden. If you have enough people over the guys not gonna be able to count how many people came in and how many people left. But like i said i wouldnt get involved in this, because sure a woman needs some protecting sometime, but if she isnt pro-active in the self preservation of her own life, and is depended on every body else, then she'll get some other form of damage to her in another aspect of life.
Daves-got-guns is offline  
Old December 17, 2006, 09:47 PM   #84
tanksoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 219
There is a difference between your door simply being unlocked, and leaving your door unlocked with the hope that someone will walk thru it so you can shoot them.

More to the point, there's a difference between planning for this to happen and keeping your mouth shut... and posting your intentions all over the internet.


Quote:
If i leave my door unlock is that "inviting"? I dont get that, why was it said that you left your door unlocked is baiting??
__________________
I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight."

GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
tanksoldier is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 07:11 AM   #85
billydiesel
Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Location: Gainesville,FL
Posts: 55
That seems wrong, if that is baiting then I have been doing it for ten years because I have no keys to my house. So it is never locked. But my family is very familiar with firearms and not afraid to use them. Someone is almost always here and I have two pitbulls when were not. Is that baiting?
billydiesel is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 08:38 AM   #86
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Well......

I think if you create a situation where you will be "justified" in killing someone, it is murder, though experts in law and criminal justice are the ones to talk to.

It's the job of police, overwatched by the courts who protect people's constitutional rights (and who decide innocence and guilt, probable cause etc.), to set traps, lie in wait, and carry weapons for offensive purposes. Leave it to them.

You have, in any case, picked the worst place in the world to even fantasize about actions that may be criminal: a public forum on the internet, probably from your own home computer with its always-traceable hard drive. Go and talk, in private, to experts who can have legally priveleged communications with you. And in the meantime, refrain from violent action and speech at all costs as you are now a sitting duck; my advice anyway.....

Last edited by gvf; December 18, 2006 at 08:57 AM. Reason: spelling
gvf is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 11:32 AM   #87
billydiesel
Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Location: Gainesville,FL
Posts: 55
I apologize if that seems wrong, but it is not a trap. If you had a friend that was being threatened, and you offered to keep them company, whether the door is locked or not, self defense is self defense. I am not saying shoot anyone who comes through the door. But you can defend yourself if an unwanted guest becomes an attacker. I don't ever want to shoot first unless forced to, and if I can rectify the situation without violence I will.
but an unlocked door does not mean come do as you will. I don't think the intent was murder as much as it was getting the situation over with. Until you have been harassed that way, you can't judge someones reaction. And as I have said, unless the situation becomes violent, there is no need for deadly force. Many times the fact of knowing she is not alone can put an uncertainty in the stalker, and maybe end the scenario. The main thing is that locked door or not, if you are in danger, you are in danger!!
billydiesel is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 12:07 PM   #88
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
It's a trap, because he SAYS it's a trap. It's not a trap to, as you say, offer to keep a scared friend "company." But, it IS a trap to:

1. Recognize that if you leave the door unlocked, a person will very likely break in;
2. Decide you'd like to kill that person;
3. Leave the door unlocked, so that that person will likely come in the house;
4. Wait inside with a loaded gun, thinking to yourself "Gee, I hope they come in, so that I can shoot them";
5. Shoot the person dead when the finally come in; and
6. Go back afterward and tell the cops that it was "self-defense" ("Self-defense" means that you were in an "unprovoked" attack where you were "in fear for your life.")

No, I'm sorry. If you're in fear for your life, and you know ahead of time that the attack is coming, you lock the door, or you try to get away. If you sit there, waiting and hoping that it will happen, you're not in fear for your life sufficient to evoke self-defense. And, if you shoot someone and you're not in fear for your life, it DOESN'T MATTER whether they are trying to break into your house! It's MURDER, unless you're in fear for your life.
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 02:15 PM   #89
dave421
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2006
Posts: 510
In NC, that's first degree murder. It's PLANNED. There's a huge difference in sitting around with a friend with a door unlocked and trying to trick someone into thinking that nobody is home and hoping they come in while you lie in wait. If your INTENT is to protect someone, then do so, get them armed and trained and help them protect themselves. If your INTENT is to rid the world of a criminal by ambush, it's first degree murder. I don't get how people can't see the difference. Police can't trick you into doing something (ever hear of entrapment) and you can't either. That's basically what the situation sounds like to me.
dave421 is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 02:37 PM   #90
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
Quote:
Police can't trick you into doing something (ever hear of entrapment) and you can't either.
Leaving the door unlocked is not tricking anybody into doing anything. A person taking advantage of unlocked door would not even be aware of the unlocked nature of the door until after they tried to open it. That means the criminal has already decided to attempt to gain entry into the house of his own free will.
ATW525 is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 03:19 PM   #91
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
Quote:
Leaving the door unlocked is not tricking anybody into doing anything. A person taking advantage of unlocked door would not even be aware of the unlocked nature of the door until after they tried to open it. That means the criminal has already decided to attempt to gain entry into the house of his own free will.
Mmmmkay. HERE'S where we have the communication problem. Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM. You ONLY have the right to shoot someone if you are in fear for your life!

Setting an ambush for someone whom you are reasonably certain is going to break into your house is NOT self defense! It's not self defense, because you are not in fear for your life when you set the ambush! At best, all you're doing when you set the ambush is defending your property from invasion, and you're NOT ALLOWED to shoot someone for a property crime!

ATW525, if you insist that it is legal to lie in wait in your friend's house with the door unlocked, I invite you to try it and find out what happens. But, I PROMISE YOU, if you follow the scenario the way it is described in this thread, you WILL GO TO JAIL for the rest of (better part of) your life!!!
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 03:55 PM   #92
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
Quote:
Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM.
I don't recall saying anything to that effect. All I said was that leaving the door unlocked was not "tricking" somebody into committing a crime. I don't advocate blowing the guy away just because he gains entry. Personally I believe that lying in wait with a camera would be much more effective than lying in wait with a gun, and it would be a lot less hassle and mess.
ATW525 is offline  
Old December 18, 2006, 04:11 PM   #93
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
Ok, then. It's not "tricking." The legal term for it is "lying in wait." And, it's one of the ways to prove "premeditation and deliberation" sufficient to bump a murder rap up to first-degree murder.

I'm telling you, it's WAY bad to do that...
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old December 19, 2006, 03:13 AM   #94
tanksoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 219
Not so in Colorado.


Quote:
HERE'S where we have the communication problem. Just because a criminal attempts to "gain entry" into your house, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT THEM. You ONLY have the right to shoot someone if you are in fear for your life!
__________________
I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight."

GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
tanksoldier is offline  
Old December 19, 2006, 04:19 AM   #95
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Enough

This is ridiculous. The guy states in his original posting that he helped to create - and then participated in - a plan to attempt to kill his friend's wife's stalker.
The rest is all a contrivance to convince the police he acted in self-defense or defense of the woman. But he didn't, he and the husband-friend placed all three of them in danger so the stalker could be killed and it made to look like an unexpected break-in that they "had" to respond to by killing in SD. It's bunk. And he tells us all this. And he's not even the aggrieved party, or that party's husband, but a friend, wanting to kill the guy nonetheless, just like one of the boys 'round the hangin tree 150 years ago, giving a helpful pull to the noose-rope at the lynchin..

This has nothing to do with Tacticts & Training, proper use of guns or training in self-defense. Enough of this craziness and let's back to our purpose, to learn more about these necessary things.

Last edited by gvf; December 19, 2006 at 09:14 AM. Reason: addition
gvf is offline  
Old December 19, 2006, 01:03 PM   #96
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
Very good insight, gvf. I left this one open for two reasons, that members could set the original poster on the right track, and for discussion on the very real problem of defense from sexual predators and stalkers, but I think this one's run its course.

Certainly, continued debate on planning premeditated murder is not in the best interests of TFL, its members, and gunners in general. See my sig line.

My apologies for not realizing this sooner.

Closed.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06856 seconds with 10 queries