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Old November 13, 2017, 06:14 PM   #1
5pins
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Winchester 9mm 147gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics gel.



I was able to lay my hands on a small number of the controversial Winchester 9mm Black Talons. Demonized by politicians and gun control groups when it came out in the early 90’s. Designed to pass the FBI standard how does it stand up today to the latest offerings in the world of defense ammo.

Six rounds into two 16 inch blocks of Clear Ballistics gel at 10 feet. Test gun used is a Sig P229 with a 4.9-inch barrel and a S&W shield with a 3.1-inch barrel. Two rounds into the bare gel and two into gel covered with heavy clothing from the Sig. Finally, two rounds fired from the Shield into the bare gel.

The first round fired info the bare gel had a velocity of 983fps penetrated to 16 inches and expanded to .55 inches. Round two also penetrated 16 inches with a velocity of 986fps and expanded to .61 inches.



I didn’t get any velocity reading for either of the rounds fired through the heavy clothing. The first hit the table top about halfway through the first so I didn’t measure the penetration but it still expanded to .54 inches. Round two penetrated to 15.5 inches expanded to .52 inches.



The first round out of Shield into bare gel had a velocity of 939fps penetrated to 19 inches and expanded to .58 inches. Round two expanded to .52 inches, penetrated to 19.5 inches and had a velocity of 920fps.

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Old November 13, 2017, 06:24 PM   #2
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Those look pretty mean once expanded.
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Old November 13, 2017, 06:29 PM   #3
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Looks like some good reliable penetration and expansion to me. 147 grain is pretty heavy so the velocity you got is pretty good. Too bad those rounds is pretty hard to come by and pretty expensive.
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Old November 13, 2017, 06:36 PM   #4
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Loose the black paint, Rebranded Ranger T, go about your business.
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Old November 13, 2017, 07:01 PM   #5
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Loose the black paint, Rebranded Ranger T, go about your business.
But the black paint makes it so much more sinister!!! And having "Talon" in the name is so much scarier than "Ranger" (unless you're talking about Walker, Texas Ranger )
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Old November 13, 2017, 07:51 PM   #6
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I remember choosing Black Talons for defense loads before Winchester pulled them. They were a good bullet, and the current "replacement" is good as well.

I find it amusing when I hear someone say that the 9mm is so effective today because of the recent improvements in bullet technology. The Black Talon, Gold Dot, and XTP were all developed over 20 years ago, and still perform very well by today's standards.
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Old November 13, 2017, 09:07 PM   #7
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I find it amusing when I hear someone say that the 9mm is so effective today because of the recent improvements in bullet technology. The Black Talon, Gold Dot, and XTP were all developed over 20 years ago, and still perform very well by today's standards.
The Black Talon has been improved on...the Golddot is now offered in the G2 bullet... so the advancements continue
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Old November 14, 2017, 04:03 PM   #8
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I remember the old radio host G.Gordon Liddy talking about these and all the controversy and said that they should be painted pink and called Peace Corp Bullets.

I have 5 of them in 44 mag.
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:43 PM   #9
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I was with American Rifleman magazine when the Black Talon came out. I was talking with Winchester's PR director one afternoon and told him flat out that the name was a huge mistake. He disagreed, but a short time later it became a big issue and caused Winchester a lot of problems.

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Old November 15, 2017, 10:51 AM   #10
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But the black paint makes it so much more sinister!!! And having "Talon" in the name is so much scarier than "Ranger" (unless you're talking about Walker, Texas Ranger )
"Sinister" and "scary" seem to be the criteria for many gun/ammo bans/restrictions
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Old November 15, 2017, 07:32 PM   #11
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Mike, you're right. Sinister name and the shooting of a law officer at 101 California Street in San Francisco resulted in an out-of-court settlement whereby Winchester withdrew it from the civilian market. At least they gave the public Ranger.

BTW, at the time of the shooting I was waiting to testify and was hiding in the District Attorney's law library at the Whore of Justice (our nickname for the Hall of Justice).
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Old November 16, 2017, 12:22 AM   #12
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I consider the black talon to be one of the most completely stupid ideas in recent history. They did plenty of damage all by themselves, black, talon, putting out photographs of those incredibly sharp, hooked claws, the words that they used, the claims of lethal effects, promoting it to yahoos like me who were already believed to be insane, murdering psychopaths, and in general, doing something that was more irresponsible than selling plutonium on eBay. Everyone who saw it who hated guns farted out kittens. Even I had a spastic attack, because I saw that it would end badly, and very few people that I knew at the time believed me.

Then you had that various press outlets that used words like ripping, tearing, shredding, knife like claws, lethal, Buzz saw, and even more damaging blathering.

I believe that there were already several bullets that probably worked better in some areas of testing, and I believe that there are currently at least a dozen designs that stand shoulder high over the past performance of the talon.

I believe that the entire shooting community took a shot to the sack over black talon.
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Old November 16, 2017, 12:44 PM   #13
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I consider the black talon to be one of the most completely stupid ideas in recent history. They did plenty of damage all by themselves, black, talon, putting out photographs of those incredibly sharp, hooked claws, the words that they used, the claims of lethal effects, promoting it to yahoos like me who were already believed to be insane, murdering psychopaths, and in general, doing something that was more irresponsible than selling plutonium on eBay. Everyone who saw it who hated guns farted out kittens. Even I had a spastic attack, because I saw that it would end badly, and very few people that I knew at the time believed me.
Just so you know Brian, I laughed a good bit. Especially the gun haters who farted out kittens...
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Old November 19, 2017, 08:37 AM   #14
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Have several boxes of the original 45 acp 230 BT's sitting in shoe box in closet. Kept them in the house 45, maybe they are worth more money to someone all these years later?
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Old November 19, 2017, 12:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ratshooter View Post
I remember the old radio host G.Gordon Liddy talking about these and all the controversy and said that they should be painted pink and called Peace Corp Bullets.

I have 5 of them in 44 mag.
I'm still waiting for someone to make Fluffy Cuddle-Bunny Pacifier rounds....and I dare any prosecutor to say that name to a jury when prosecuting a SD case.

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Old November 19, 2017, 04:17 PM   #16
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ORDER IN THE COURT!
ORDER IN THE COURT!

I WILL HAVE ORDER IN MY COURT!

BAILIFF, ESCORT THOSE TWO LAUGHING BUFFOONS IN CAMOUFLAGE OUT OF THIS COURT!
Jury duty made tolerable.
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Old November 20, 2017, 02:29 PM   #17
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5pins,

The W-W 147 grain Black Talon Subsconic made the 9MM respectable.
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Old November 20, 2017, 02:30 PM   #18
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If I owned a 9MM and I carried it for self-defense, I'd use 147 grain Federal HST Tactical ammo.
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Old November 20, 2017, 06:14 PM   #19
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That may be the right choice. I carry 125. My overall goal is to get at least ten inches and the 125 in my load performed just about as well as the heavier one, but expanded diameters were a bit larger.

In any case, whatever choice I make will turn out to be the wrong one. I will carry a nine to the park and every critter at the zoo will break out and charge when they hear my voice.

It's human nature to expect the best and have confidence in the eventual outcome.

My grandfather used to tell me "God gave you legs so you can run away when your 9mm doesn't stop the bad guy". My grandfather was pretty smart.
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Old November 21, 2017, 10:56 AM   #20
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Thanks cor using up some of that legendary ammunition to provide us with these pictures and data. I am a newer shooter and Black Talon was long discontinued by the time I started shooting, but I love the legend of the Black Talon rounds.

That performance from such short barreled handguns is really impressive, too. Definitely contending with modern ammo. I'm a god dot man but I'd use black talons instead if I had any.
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Old November 21, 2017, 01:50 PM   #21
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ehh, gold dot or plenty of others equal or outperform talon.

I wonder what the federal inner post bullets are doing?

Does anyone remember nyclad? A flash in the pan.
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Old November 21, 2017, 01:53 PM   #22
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I saw an episode of cops in which the cop checked out a guy who was carrying legally with a license, the cop confiscated his bt ammo from pistol and magazines.

Ouch. Probably close to $100.
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Old November 22, 2017, 08:10 AM   #23
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"Does anyone remember nyclad? A flash in the pan."

If one considers that Nyclads were sold for close to 50 years, and were for a long time were a primary choice of those who carried snubbies because they actually had some hope of expanding at snub velocity, they were hardly a flash in the pan.
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Old November 22, 2017, 10:22 AM   #24
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Can you explain that? You're putting the creation at 1970 or so. It's been discontinued several times and isn't currently in production.

I personally thought that it was brilliant for its time, wide open cavity, dead soft core, the absolute expansion of that soft core without leading at low velocity.

The fbi and $1 per round twenty packs are in charge now. I can't imagine that very many people will want this item.

Speer could introduce an identical round in gold dot, that thin plated jacket over thin lead with a carefully engineered point meant to positively expand at mediocre velocities.

Any cast bullet maker could cut a mold, use a different alloy, and use the coated bullet technology, right?

I can't imagine anyone, literally anyone choosing this round over another specially engineered round unless it was sold at a very competitive price. A bit more than a plain plated jacketed bullet.
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Old November 22, 2017, 10:38 AM   #25
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I started wondering about silvertip pistol, how it has done. It's almost $1 a round, comparable to many rounds with fancy names. I can understand why it still sells. It spent years as the top tier, it has one of the most recognizable brands, and probably very few people think about the loss of dignity it suffered after Miami.
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