|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
November 13, 2017, 06:14 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 30, 1998
Location: WV
Posts: 252
|
Winchester 9mm 147gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics gel.
I was able to lay my hands on a small number of the controversial Winchester 9mm Black Talons. Demonized by politicians and gun control groups when it came out in the early 90’s. Designed to pass the FBI standard how does it stand up today to the latest offerings in the world of defense ammo. Six rounds into two 16 inch blocks of Clear Ballistics gel at 10 feet. Test gun used is a Sig P229 with a 4.9-inch barrel and a S&W shield with a 3.1-inch barrel. Two rounds into the bare gel and two into gel covered with heavy clothing from the Sig. Finally, two rounds fired from the Shield into the bare gel. The first round fired info the bare gel had a velocity of 983fps penetrated to 16 inches and expanded to .55 inches. Round two also penetrated 16 inches with a velocity of 986fps and expanded to .61 inches. I didn’t get any velocity reading for either of the rounds fired through the heavy clothing. The first hit the table top about halfway through the first so I didn’t measure the penetration but it still expanded to .54 inches. Round two penetrated to 15.5 inches expanded to .52 inches. The first round out of Shield into bare gel had a velocity of 939fps penetrated to 19 inches and expanded to .58 inches. Round two expanded to .52 inches, penetrated to 19.5 inches and had a velocity of 920fps.
__________________
www.general-cartridge.com |
November 13, 2017, 06:24 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Rural PA
Posts: 1,639
|
Those look pretty mean once expanded.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp |
November 13, 2017, 06:29 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
|
Looks like some good reliable penetration and expansion to me. 147 grain is pretty heavy so the velocity you got is pretty good. Too bad those rounds is pretty hard to come by and pretty expensive.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! |
November 13, 2017, 06:36 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2014
Posts: 301
|
Loose the black paint, Rebranded Ranger T, go about your business.
|
November 13, 2017, 07:01 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
|
Quote:
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! |
|
November 13, 2017, 07:51 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 887
|
I remember choosing Black Talons for defense loads before Winchester pulled them. They were a good bullet, and the current "replacement" is good as well.
I find it amusing when I hear someone say that the 9mm is so effective today because of the recent improvements in bullet technology. The Black Talon, Gold Dot, and XTP were all developed over 20 years ago, and still perform very well by today's standards. |
November 13, 2017, 09:07 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,678
|
Quote:
|
|
November 14, 2017, 04:03 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,746
|
I remember the old radio host G.Gordon Liddy talking about these and all the controversy and said that they should be painted pink and called Peace Corp Bullets.
I have 5 of them in 44 mag. |
November 14, 2017, 08:43 PM | #9 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
|
I was with American Rifleman magazine when the Black Talon came out. I was talking with Winchester's PR director one afternoon and told him flat out that the name was a huge mistake. He disagreed, but a short time later it became a big issue and caused Winchester a lot of problems.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk |
November 15, 2017, 10:51 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
|
November 15, 2017, 07:32 PM | #11 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,823
|
Mike, you're right. Sinister name and the shooting of a law officer at 101 California Street in San Francisco resulted in an out-of-court settlement whereby Winchester withdrew it from the civilian market. At least they gave the public Ranger.
BTW, at the time of the shooting I was waiting to testify and was hiding in the District Attorney's law library at the Whore of Justice (our nickname for the Hall of Justice).
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
November 16, 2017, 12:22 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
I consider the black talon to be one of the most completely stupid ideas in recent history. They did plenty of damage all by themselves, black, talon, putting out photographs of those incredibly sharp, hooked claws, the words that they used, the claims of lethal effects, promoting it to yahoos like me who were already believed to be insane, murdering psychopaths, and in general, doing something that was more irresponsible than selling plutonium on eBay. Everyone who saw it who hated guns farted out kittens. Even I had a spastic attack, because I saw that it would end badly, and very few people that I knew at the time believed me.
Then you had that various press outlets that used words like ripping, tearing, shredding, knife like claws, lethal, Buzz saw, and even more damaging blathering. I believe that there were already several bullets that probably worked better in some areas of testing, and I believe that there are currently at least a dozen designs that stand shoulder high over the past performance of the talon. I believe that the entire shooting community took a shot to the sack over black talon.
__________________
None. |
November 16, 2017, 12:44 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,640
|
Quote:
|
|
November 19, 2017, 08:37 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,664
|
Have several boxes of the original 45 acp 230 BT's sitting in shoe box in closet. Kept them in the house 45, maybe they are worth more money to someone all these years later?
|
November 19, 2017, 12:53 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,169
|
Quote:
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk |
|
November 19, 2017, 04:17 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
Quote:
__________________
None. |
|
November 20, 2017, 02:29 PM | #17 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
|
5pins,
The W-W 147 grain Black Talon Subsconic made the 9MM respectable. |
November 20, 2017, 02:30 PM | #18 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
|
If I owned a 9MM and I carried it for self-defense, I'd use 147 grain Federal HST Tactical ammo.
|
November 20, 2017, 06:14 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
That may be the right choice. I carry 125. My overall goal is to get at least ten inches and the 125 in my load performed just about as well as the heavier one, but expanded diameters were a bit larger.
In any case, whatever choice I make will turn out to be the wrong one. I will carry a nine to the park and every critter at the zoo will break out and charge when they hear my voice. It's human nature to expect the best and have confidence in the eventual outcome. My grandfather used to tell me "God gave you legs so you can run away when your 9mm doesn't stop the bad guy". My grandfather was pretty smart.
__________________
None. |
November 21, 2017, 10:56 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 14, 2014
Posts: 394
|
Thanks cor using up some of that legendary ammunition to provide us with these pictures and data. I am a newer shooter and Black Talon was long discontinued by the time I started shooting, but I love the legend of the Black Talon rounds.
That performance from such short barreled handguns is really impressive, too. Definitely contending with modern ammo. I'm a god dot man but I'd use black talons instead if I had any. |
November 21, 2017, 01:50 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
ehh, gold dot or plenty of others equal or outperform talon.
I wonder what the federal inner post bullets are doing? Does anyone remember nyclad? A flash in the pan.
__________________
None. |
November 21, 2017, 01:53 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
I saw an episode of cops in which the cop checked out a guy who was carrying legally with a license, the cop confiscated his bt ammo from pistol and magazines.
Ouch. Probably close to $100.
__________________
None. |
November 22, 2017, 08:10 AM | #23 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
|
"Does anyone remember nyclad? A flash in the pan."
If one considers that Nyclads were sold for close to 50 years, and were for a long time were a primary choice of those who carried snubbies because they actually had some hope of expanding at snub velocity, they were hardly a flash in the pan.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
November 22, 2017, 10:22 AM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
Can you explain that? You're putting the creation at 1970 or so. It's been discontinued several times and isn't currently in production.
I personally thought that it was brilliant for its time, wide open cavity, dead soft core, the absolute expansion of that soft core without leading at low velocity. The fbi and $1 per round twenty packs are in charge now. I can't imagine that very many people will want this item. Speer could introduce an identical round in gold dot, that thin plated jacket over thin lead with a carefully engineered point meant to positively expand at mediocre velocities. Any cast bullet maker could cut a mold, use a different alloy, and use the coated bullet technology, right? I can't imagine anyone, literally anyone choosing this round over another specially engineered round unless it was sold at a very competitive price. A bit more than a plain plated jacketed bullet.
__________________
None. |
November 22, 2017, 10:38 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
I started wondering about silvertip pistol, how it has done. It's almost $1 a round, comparable to many rounds with fancy names. I can understand why it still sells. It spent years as the top tier, it has one of the most recognizable brands, and probably very few people think about the loss of dignity it suffered after Miami.
__________________
None. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|