Hornady .44 Mag brass

[wileybelch]

I just stumbled on a situation that previous threads talked about concerning Hornady brass being unexpectedly short. One respondent claimed that ammunition manufacturers could make their brass any length they wanted!
OK, maybe so, but when I buy ammunition stated to be .44 Magnum I expect it to resonably conform to SAAMI dimensions for proper use in my firearm. PERIOD! Any deviation from said standard should be stated on the packaging and on the headstamp.
That being said, I recently bought a batch of mixed headstamp 1X fired .44 Mag brass and separated the mixture by headstamps. Everything worked fine until I inspected the finished rounds for consistency, when I saw the Hornady headstamped cases were improperly crimped and SHORT by up to 0.050" (SAAMI gives case length as 1.285" or thereabouts). Needless to say, those short cases didn't properly crimp when the seating die put 1.285" cases spot on.
It seems Hornady feels free to ignore SAAMI dimensions when they want (presumably to accommodate their oddball ammo) . In this case, I will trash the short cases and be more critical when buying undisclosed headstamped brass.
Has anyone else found this to be true? With this caliber or any others? Or any other suggestions for dealing with this Hornady behavior?

[BBarn]

Most likely reason is that it was loaded with Hornady FTX bullets which require a shortened case in the 44 Mag.

[oldscot3]

Yep, same for 444 Marlin Hornady cases used for the flex tip bullets. The overall loaded length of the ammunition would be too long without shortening the case.

[Reloadron]

As mentioned Hornady has done that with several cases to accommodate their FTX bullet design. The FTX bullets have a longer ogive making it critical the cartridge cases be shorter then an SAAMI specification. The typical 44 Remington Magnum has a case length of 1.285" -0.020 so between 1.265" and 1.285" is a case meeting the SAAMI specification. The normal suggested trim length is 1.275" or about 0.010" below maximum case length. The suggested trim to length for using a 225 grain FTX 0.430" diameter bullet is 1.255" which is obviously short by SAAMI standard.

While Hornady does subscribe to SAAMI specifications on some cartridges they take exception. The SAAMI specifications are in fact voluntary industry standards so manufacturers are not forced into any compliance.

That is pretty much the why of what you are seeing. It's also the why that I don't buy their stuff. I can make a long case shorter but have never had much success the other way around.

Ron

[mikld]

For my info only; I know Hornady makes a propriety round, using FTX bullets and that cases are shorter to accommodate the ogive of the bullet, but does the headstamp designate "FTX"?

[tranders]

Yep, that Hornady brass was loaded with FTX bullets.

It is good brass,but I avoid it for this reason.

[briandg]

This is strange. All components of the rounds should follow saami convention. A +p round must have it on the headstamp. A complicated mess that results in non standard brass going back into the system.

Blazer used off sized berdan primers to prevent their aluminum brass from being reused, something similar should be done to all nonstandard brass.

[oldscot3]

You can fire 44 special cases in a 44 mag revolver with no harm. You just can't put longer cases in shorter chambers. Why should you care if some of your cases are shorter? As long as you are aware of what you're using, with a slightly reduced internal capacity, it shouldn't be a safety issue.

[briandg]

It would cause problems when you are trying to reload them and the bullets aren't reaching the case neck.

[Pathfinder45]

I have encountered the same situation in 45 Colt. Those short cases are too short to crimp at all in my RCBS die and my Lee collet-style, Factory Crimp die. They will crimp with the Lee carbide FC die. With 44 Magnum you probably won't have this problem as I believe most die sets will accomodate both the 44 Magnum and 44 Special cartridges.

[oldscot3]

It would cause problems when you are trying to reload them and the bullets aren't reaching the case neck.

I'm not sure I follow you, can you expand on that?

[briandg]

If you are loading and some of it is mixed in with other brass, you will find that the case mouth doesn't reach the crimp groove, or canellure, as the op said. If you load the bullets deeply enough to hold the bullet, will it affect other things?

What they did was to alter the brass so that it fit a bullet that is only made by themselves.
The bottom line is that standards should be followed, or they don't meet standard. Saami set a standard for that cartridge and apparently tornado brass is not within universally useable specs.

[wileybelch]

It sounds like lots of folks have unpopular experiences with some Hornady brass. I will specify to sellers of 1x fired brass that NO Hornady cases be present. Most respondents also agree that the headstamp should reflect a special (non SAAMI) form of a SAAMI caliber. This is not a safety issue, it is a conformity (to a voluntary, but accepted, standard) issue. The shooting public has enough problems with shotgun ammo (drams vs grains), do we want to confuse folks more by upsetting accepted cartridge standards?

[FrankenMauser]

This is strange. All components of the rounds should follow saami convention. A +p round must have it on the headstamp. A complicated mess that results in non standard brass going back into the system

SAAMI compliance is voluntary - even for members.
In the United States of litigiousness, ammunition companies can do what ever they want.

Acting as though a nonstandard load is some cataclysmic offense is ridiculous.
SAAMI is LESS of an enforcer or government mandate than the MPAA is (Motion Picture Association of America). Film ratings and ammunition standards are not as "standard" as you think they are...

In the case of .44 Mag "once fired" Hornady brass being short... It's likely a case of brass from LVR (LeverEvolution) factory loads. To fit the long FTX in revolver and lever action chambers and still be able to crimp the bullet, Hornady has to trim the brass short to match the cannelure.

... Well known issue.
If you don't like it, don't buy "once fired" Hornady brass.
Instead, fire it once yourself or buy virgin.

[oldscot3]

If you are loading and some of it is mixed in with other brass, you will find that the case mouth doesn't reach the crimp groove, or canellure, as the op said.

This senario describes a bad reloading practice, which would be loading mixed headstamp brass without checking them. The op said he segregated his brass by brand and obviously he checked for length or he probably wouldn't have noticed the short Hornady brass.

If you load the bullets deeply enough to hold the bullet, will it affect other things?

Yes, it will reduce case capacity a little, the solution is to adjust your powder charge. Not a big deal if you know what you're doing.

Acting as though a nonstandard load is some cataclysmic offense is ridiculous.

+1 on that and I for one appreciated companies like Hornady being innovators and bringing out new products like their Leverevolution ammo, etc.

[Reloadron]

Quote:

Acting as though a nonstandard load is some cataclysmic offense is ridiculous.

Oh yeah, well...
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this person who's going with the girl who saw someone loading Hornady short brass. I guess it's pretty serious. This actual photograph was taken of the first round being fired in the guys garage.



Yes, Hornady brass is shorter in some cases. The subject has a learning curve. Most hand loaders are aware of it and those who are not are learning about it. Good reloading practice dictates that we check our brass length but more people tend to check brass in loading bottle neck rifle. We all have our procedures we have developed. Straight wall handgun I do measure and I do sort head stamp. I only do this so when bullet seating I get good and consistent uniformity.

As to the difference in Hornady brass? Not much anyone can say about it other than it exist.

Ron

[briandg]

Isn't that picture a glock? A gp100? Wait... a Taurus? Rossi? Oh, wait, I recognize that color now.. that's a pinto that missed the fuel tank recall.

A person who simply stands his brass on a clean flat tray will be able to see that there are short cartridges. Five minutes problem solved.

I don't recall anyone implying that it's cataclysmic. If it goes unnoticed it's going to be a bother. The simple facts of the matter are that hornady released non standard brass without giving that information. Every person is counting on those standards and it is taken on faith.

hornady only sells it as new ammo, and re using the brass isn't any concern of theirs, so as long as the ammunition meets standard, it's not their concern.

Given that fact, many other products have mandatory standards, a maker has to disclose if there is no chocolate in the chips.

[mikld]

Doesn't anybody inspect their brass? I can pick out 44 Special from .44 Magnum brass quite easily, mostly by sight but there is always"comparison" inspection (a Magnum case and a Special case, or for this situation, an FTX case side by side on the bench and glance at the "examples" to compare with the one in your hand).

I still wanna know if the "short" brass is marked on the headstamp...

[RC20]

Above is the perfect solution. Trim it down to 44 special!

That is pretty much the why of what you are seeing. It's also the why that I don't buy their stuff. I can make a long case shorter but have never had much success the other way around.

Ahh my friend, you have not see the New Lock and Load product from Popeele gave you?

ITs their special brass stretcher, it also come with 15 knives and 4 bags of assorted nuts.

It slices, it dices and it stretches.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by tranders

Yep, that Hornady brass was loaded with FTX bullets.

It is good brass,but I avoid it for this reason.

I'm cheap and I don't avoid any good brass. I just keep shortened Hornady brass separate from standard length brass and adjust my dies/powder charge, accordingly for it. Not really a big deal. Last thing I would do is trim it down to .44 special.

[Chainsaw.]

This is one of a couple reasons I dont keep hornady 44 brass. The other is for some reason, no matter how much lube I use the brass always gets stuck in my sizing die, could very well be my die but...
As mentioned above, just trim mag brass to specual length uf the neck cracks, its to short etc. This makes it easy to know if you have mellow loads in hand.

[mikld]

Well, perhaps I'm different with my reloading methods, but, I use Hornady brass, along with other manufacturers' brass, in all my hand guns (380, 38 Spec., 357 Mag., 9mm, 45 /ACP, 44 Spec. and 44 Mag.) and my rifles (30-06, 308, and .223). I have never had a case stick in a die or chamber. I have never had a case split any earlier than other brass. I have never had any rims tear off, either reloading or extracting. The case capacities, where I have checked, are consistent. I don't shoot .25 MOA @ 300 yards so I can't compare the accuracy from Hornady brass vs. any other brass.

Hornady made a propriety cartridge that us usable in all firearms chambered for the "parent" round, and the case is a bit shorter to accommodate the FTX bullets profile. Big deal. If you don't inspect your brass prior to reloading/processing, expect trouble (steel cases, Berdan primed, and yes, even FTX brass)...

[Sky Master]

I've found that Hornady's .357 Mag brass is short too.