Duplicating 30-30 ballistics with the 06.

[longfellow]

Unless I use cast bullets and cast reloading data, there is little information on "reduced loads" for the 06 that approximate the 30-30 levels of energy and velocity, in the popular reloading manuals. For example, everything with the 150 grain bullet starts out at about 2,500 ft/s and goes UP from there.

Other than this, there are "Reduced Loads" that Speer has always included but these are noty intended for serious, ethical hunting purposes.

I'd like to use either of the two common bullets designed for 30-30 velocities (the 150gr and 170 gr at 1,800-2,200 ft/s) but shoot them out of my 06 for deer hunting in the Northeast. Can anyone share with me where I might find published data to this effect?

Thanks,
Ed

[243winxb]

Hodgdon Youth Loads. Using H4895, reduce the 30-06 powder charge till you get the velocity your looking for. http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf A reduced load of H4895-30.6gr with a 150 gr jacketed bullet is what i get using Hodgdons method. What the velocity is , i do not know. You will need a chronograph to know. Edit: If we look at Hodgdon load data for the 30-30 with 150gr it shows a maximum load of H4895 at 34.0 gr with a velocity of 2390 fps out of a 24" barrel. This amount of powder in a larger 30-06 case might be very close to what your looking for.

[Unclenick]

Hodgdon says H4895 is unique in its ability to keep performing with low load densities, so it's a good powder choice for your project. But the Speer loads, which fall right in your velocity range, should not be dismissed as not serious. Velocity is velocity, whatever powder you use to get the result you do. If it's up to .30-30, it's up to .30-30, and that's what matters.

With a 150 grain bullet in the .30-06 and using a 24" barrel, QuickLOAD calculates that 35 grains of H4895 would give about 2000 fps. It says 30.8 grains would be about 1800 fps and 38.3 grains would be about 2200 fps. Personally, I would stay at 35 grains because I don't like to get below 60% case fill with a rifle powder that isn't pretty quick. This is to avoid pressure swings from ignition irregularity. Indeed, I prefer to stay 70% full if I can, but that would put you at just over 40 grains and at 2300 fps in the calculator.

You rifle may or may not shoot the load that fast. Because of chamber and bore dimension differences, your real results could differ by 200 fps or so. That's another reason to use the 35 grain number to start. You'll need a chronograph to see what it actually produces in your gun.

Note, too, that with loads that fill the case so poorly, you may get a good 100 fps difference in muzzle velocity depending on whether the powder lies forward, away from the primer, or backward over the flash hole when you fire. Again, the H4895 choice should minimize the problem, but you can test in a bolt gun just by tipping the muzzle up or down before coming level to fire. If your range doesn't allow a muzzle to point up with a loaded round, tip the cartridge up before chambering and close the bolt very gently.

Speer's reduced load of 26-28 grains of Accurate 5744 also falls right in your velocity range. The case fill percentage is about 50%, but a faster powder like 5744 is going to be less sensitive to case fill as it burns fast whether a primer spark is flashing over its horizontal leveled surface or not. I note that QuickLOAD predicts velocity about 130 fps higher than Speer reports for this combination in a 22" barrel. QuickLOAD assumes perfect ignition, which is one reason it can err a little high with some lower pressure combinations that don't ignite as smoothly in the real world.

The 5744 load will produce less recoil than the H4895 load because the charge weight is lighter and and the muzzle pressure is lower at bullet exit, reducing muzzle blast rocket effect. For an 8 lb rifle and scope combination, comparing 28.0 grains of 5744 to 38.3 grains of H4895 (close on velocity in QuickLOAD), I get 7.96 ft-lb of recoil for the 5744 load, and 9.63 ft-lbs for the H4895 load. That's 21% difference. Because nerves have logarithmic sensitivity, you need about 10% difference to be able to tell there is any difference at all, but at 21% it will be apparent that there is. Whether it matters to you or not depends on you and on the circumstances, but psychologically, for many, lighter recoil improves confidence in making the shot.

[Loader9]

With reduced loads, SR4759 is yer friend. It's bulky so it's not going to go thru a powder measure with any kind of accuracy. It's quick burning, is extremely clean and loading densities are high. I'm not sure you can get enough of it in a 3006 case to be dangerous but a dandy reduced load I use for the Boy Scouts is 19.0grs under any 150 gr bullet. That puts density at about 80% and velocity just under 2000'ps. Accuracy out of the 03A3's the boys shoot is under an inch at 100 yds. We set the 03 sights on 300 yds which puts it on the money at 100 yds. This load will hunt and is good to about 200 yds.
I would suggest though, that any brass you use for reduced load be kept separate from the other brass you use. The brass has a tendency after several firings to become short at the datum line from the firing pin hammering the brass at the shoulder area in the chamber. Effectually, it's like having excessive headspace after a few firings. Might research the effects of reduced loads on brass.

[Unclenick]

Hatcher noted a long time ago that just chambering a round rapidly could shorten headspace by something like 0.006" (IIRC). Inside, when the primer fires it is driven backward like a little piston, with the case shoved forward correspondingly. That's another source of shortening force. The case reseats the primer when the head backs up. You need to get loads up above around 30.000 psi to neutralize its shortening effect.

SR4759 has no model in QuickLOAD, but at the even lighter charge weight, I can guess it will recoil even less than 5744.

[longfellow]

What is this QuickLoad that you speak of. I must have it !!
That's great information seriously and sounds very reliable.
I am going to get Hodgdon to confirm and then I think I am good to go.

I do have a comment about the other poster who recommended 19 gr of SR-4759 because in an older IMR loading manual (those thin booklets that were free) I found a load with the same powder but one of these loads, either the one on the booklet or yours, can't be accurate. The booklet lists 31.0 gr for 2,365 ft/sec and for 31-19 = 21 grains MORE powder to only boost velocity 4oo ft/sec? Since Hodgdon now owns responsibility for IMR powders, I will go ahead and aske them about this as well.

But thanks both of you for this information.
Ed

[Unclenick]

I think you transposed your numbers. 31-19 = 12. But that's still a lot. Velocity tends to vary approximately, though not perfectly directly with powder charge, so if 31 grains produced 2365 fps, we'd expect 19 grains to produce somewhere around 1500-1600 fps. I am guessing maybe Loader9 is remembering a .30-30 load rather than a .30-06 load. That would put the 19 grain number right in the ballpark if the IMR data is correct.

What you want to do is get a chronograph and work up from 19 grains. If the velocity is as Loader9 suggests, then you're good to go. If it's as the IMR manual describes, then you'll land on about the same charge weight as 5744, but with the advantage that the 4759 will fill the case about half again better.

QuickLOAD is an interior ballistics program sold by NECO. It is very good with many rifle cartridges, but less effective with straight wall cases. Nonetheless, if you have a reliable chronograph, you can work with QuickLOAD to tweak case capacity and powder burn rate and so on until you get a good match to your measured performance, at which point predictions are typically quite close to measured performance.

[longfellow]

Thanks Nick; godd information from a solid source and a safe place to start. Yes, I do have a chronograph as well as the capability to accurately measure cases for signs of pressure (under as well as over pressure) so I am all set. Thanks for the help.

[Unclenick]

You're welcome. I've been accumulating pressure signs in this thread. If you run into any more to add to the list, please feel free to let me know or to join that board and post them so I can add to the list.

Measuring cases can take averaging a lot of them to get consistent pressure indication, but it's not to be ignored when one indicates excessive pressure, obviously. Board member Denton Bramwell has shown that individual cases can give the same response to pressure differences of almost 2:1 (here and here). The best approach for the amateur to get a relatively accurate pressure number is the RSI Pressure Trace instrument. I have one and find it useful particularly for matching performance with different components as closely as possible. (Just what you wanted; a way to part with more shooting money that doesn't get you another actual gun. I know the feeling.)

[Jim Watson]

Norma had a reduced load they called the ".30-30-06" for their European customers who are seldom handloaders.
It used a 150 gr JFP as for .30-30 in a .30-06 case with 38.1 gr Norma 200 for 2411 fps. I have loaded some and it shoots nicely.
He suggested 40 gr H322 or 41 gr 3031 if you don't have Swedish powder.

[Loader9]

The numbers I posted was correct and the handout is probably just as correct. You're assuming that the pressure curve is linear, it's not. And with SR4759 in the case of the 3006, it's not even close to linear. The pressure is more of a spike than a burn. Most of the pressure build is within the case before the bullet ever leaves the case. Adding more powder just raises the the pressure, not prolongs the burn rate. There is little to no recoil on the loads I posted. We demonstrate to the kids no recoil by bagging an 03 and stand to the side of the rifle and squeeze the trigger off- the rifle will hardly move at all. SR4759 is about the same burn rate as IMR4227 which is a magnum pistol powder.

While I haven't tried to load 31 grs of it in a 3006 case, you won't do it unless you use a drop tube. Another 12 grains is not going to fit easily if at all. Once you've actually reloaded enough, you'll find a lot of data out there that won't fit. Read some of Ackleys data for proof of that. Some of his loads I can't get in a case with a drop tube and a tamp.

[Unclenick]

Peak pressure is exponential, but average pressure, which is what velocity depends on, actually is fairly linear until you get to excess pressure and it starts to stall. But you're correct that its not usually 1:1 as I used. That's an extremely coarse approximation. Missing by a third isn't unusual with it, but it gets you into a very rough ballpark. If you multiply the lower charge by the velocity ratio raised to the power of the square root of 3 you'll come out a lot closer in many instances (but not all). Try both with some samples from a powder table and you'll see what I mean.

Even though the approximation is coarse, to go from 2000 fps to 2300 fps is simply too little velocity change for a 163% powder charge. To that extent the approximation is true. The more complicated approximation puts it at 24 grains. To get still closer, I used QuickLOAD to find a powder that gave me close to the predicted 2000 fps from 19 grains, and that was Power Pistol. It took 25 grains of that to get 2300 fps with that powder.

So, something is amis. You mentioned that 19 grains filled the .30-06 case about 80% full with SR4759. I'm getting just under 50% using Lee's VMD data to arrive at bulk density of just over 0.65 grams/cc for the 4759. 80% comes out to more like 33 grains, which, if the Power Pistol approximation were correct, would have you approaching the low end of the proof pressure range.

To double-check this, I weighed out 19 grains of 4759 and put it in a primed .30-06 case. Under 50% fill is what I got. So you can either have 19 grains or you have 80% fill, but not both. I just wondered if you might be running a heavier charge than you thought, based on a powder measure setting. That might bring you more in line with the manual information.

[black mamba]

I have seen 31 grains of SR4759 listed as a max load with 150 gr bullet in the 30-06, at around 50,000 CUP. As the capacity of a 30-06 case with bullet seated one caliber is about 40 grains of SR4759, I would strongly advise against loading a case full of this powder, as it would undoubtedly blow up the rifle.

[hootey]

Great source of cast bullet info is available in Lyman's #49 reloading handbook. Load info for cast bullets from Lyman molds(of course) and premium-modern model from 22 hornet through most calibers. Most rifle and handgun calibers listed. Another good source is the LEE Modern Reloading Second edition. Lists cast bullet and premium bullet loads one after the other for almost every rifle and pistol out there. Lists the powders that worked best for them, so not every powder is listed for every bullet. Starting on page 140 it has a cast bullet reloading section for almost every cast bullet made or available from a modern molds for the 30-30, 308, & 30-06. For the 30-06, it lists load data for 110gr cast all the way to 200gr cast bullets. Claims to have about 3000 loads for those three calibers in the one section. Manual says not counting the section for the three rounds listed, there are approx 26000 loads listed for cast and premium bullets. Both manuals also have sections for how to cast your own bullets. A lot of information in two manuals. Get as many manuals as you can, something to learn in every one of them. Old manuals are fun to look for in garage sales as well as ebay. Last, but not least, is where we are now. These guys on this forum have years of knowledge they are willing to share.

[243winxb]

From IMR Handloader's Guide 1999 30-06-150gr PTD. SPCL-.308" Dia-Rem 9 1/2- 23" bbl.- 3.200" COL- SR4759-31.0grs Maximum-2365fps-49,700 CUP.-Rem. case. 35.0gr Maximum is listed for a 110gr Hornady. The load is not marked with a "C" meaning a compressed charge.

[Stick_man]

Ed, please excuse my ignorance, but I am having a hard time trying to figure out why you would want to handicap the '06 by downloading it to the .30-30 power levels unless it is for the reduced recoil. I believe it Hornady produces "reduced recoil" loads for the '06 which would be a pretty good choice if that is the desire. A light standard loading with a 150gr bullet in '06 will produce about the same recoil as a .30-30 and still give good penetration and expansion out to 250 yards or so on a whitetail.

Remember, with reduced loads, you will need to re-sight-in your rifle as your bullet trajectory will be much different than standard loads.

If you want good, cheap, quiet, fun-shooting .30-30 level loads for your '06, I would recommend going with a 170-190gr cast boolit (bullet) with a powder along the lines of the Alliant 2400. There are some caviats to shooting cast loads though, so you will want to read up on them and make sure your barrel is absolutely totally devoid of copper fouling prior to shooting your first cast load.

The casting section (above) offers some great information on shooting cast loads, as well as several other internet sites. You might try sites such as www.Castboolits.gunloads.com or www.castpics.net as a couple sites with excellent information for all skill levels of casting addicts (yes, casting is very addictive )

[zxcvbob]

How about Berry's plated .30-30 bullets with about 18 to 20 grains of Unique? For practice anyway. (I've shot them using 13 grains of Alliant Promo, but you want something a little juicier than that.) Then switch to proper expanding .30-30 bullets of the same weight for hunting.

[Slamfire]

I have shot thousands of 168 SMK with 42.0 grains IMR 4895 in 30-06 cases, standing and sitting RF at 200 yards.

This load is accurate. Cleaned the 10 ring any number of times sitting rapid fire.

Have never, and probably will never, shoot a 20 round clean standing.

I chronographed this load with a 174 FMJBT, it clocked just at 2450 fps.

[longfellow]

hootey,
Thanks much regarding the cast loading source; I've worn out my cast handbook and actually have more experince there than with jacketed stuff - at least with cast handgun loading. I just don't want to get in to the whole ballgame with cast rifle, given how little I shoot the long gun compared to my revolvers.

Stick Man,
That's exactly what I am going to do; create a reduced load to match my recoil tollerance, which is at the 30-30 level.

Good input all. I already had the SR-4759 and just picked up some H4895 so am now all set, starting off at 19.0 grains and 35.0 grains respectively and bringing my chronograph and micrometer with me.

But I've got to seriously consider getting myself Quickload for Christmas.
Geeky engineers love gadgets.

[Unclenick]

Yep we do. And you'll love QuickLOAD to death when you see all the arguments it lets you control; even powder characteristics.

Two additional resources of value:

The online JBM calculators do some things with exterior ballistics that the two programs that come with QuickLOAD (QuickTARGET and QuickTARGET Unlimited) don't do, like stability calculations. Of particular use in working with QuickLOAD is the additional bullet length resource. Some of QuickLOAD's bullet database information is taken from photos and can be a little off.

Another is Chris Long's OBT site, which includes an approach to using QuickLOAD in conjunction with a chronograph to get its predictions to match your gun's actual performance. This dials in the pressure and barrel time calculations.

Have fun.