45-70 severe leading and poor accuracy

[totaldla]

frumious: You seem to be getting confused from the replies. Let me clear it up a bit.

All Marlin 1895s, regardless of rifling type, shoot cast bullets accurately. Marlin 1895's manufactured in the early 2000's have generous bores and also various bore constrictions. I and others have found through experimentation, that .460" diameter bullets work best, if you are not using gas checks. There isn't a meaningful velocity limitation with the 45-70, as it very hard to get the velocity high enough for the alloy and/or lube to be a factor. By the way, the sweet spot weight for the 45-70 is the 400'ish grain range, not 500+ or 300+. And the sweet spot velocity from an 18.5" barrel is 1800fps.

There is the castboolits forum where there are a lot of knowledgeable old codgers who can help you get through the learning curve of shooting cast.

The 45-70 works better with the faster powders mainly because of limited case capacity and the large swept volume of the bore which holds the combustion pressures quite low just a few inches from the chamber. IMR3031 is an OLD favorite, but there are better NEWER powders out there (3031 is long stick, finicky to meter sometimes, and is temp sensitive causing boom in the cold morning and BOOM in the warm afternoon). I like Hodgdon's Extreme series, and although I've settled on H4198, I've traversed the burn rate to Varget. Reloader 7 is a good short stick powder too. Hodgdon just happens to be more readily available where I live.

Due to the dovetails and other barrel deformities, a typical 1895 will have multiple sweet spot velocities for a give bullet where your groups size will approach 1 hole. Given that 45cal bullets make big holes in critters regardless of velocity, I strongly suggest that you focus on finding a 1 hole sweet spot and forget about maximum velocity.

My reason for shooting cast was cost. Cast is usually cheaper than jacketed. But one day I got a good deal on a zillion Remington 405gr JSP bullets and lost interest in cast. The Remington plows through Elk just fine when the impact speed is no faster than about 1800fps - and that was all I wanted. So my advice is to check out the cost of jacketed from time to time. And by the way, do not waste your money on fancy bullets - pretty mushrooms don't kill any faster. A lot of folks get suckered by fantasy bullets that jack up the cost of shooting and don't offer anything over the lowly Rem 405gr JSP.

You can tumble lube bullets and get a little better performance from them. Lee Liquid Alox is good stuff. If I were stuck with a lot of key-holing .459" fodder, I would tumble lube them with LLA and give them another try.

Hope this helps.

[hornetguy]

It is a Marlin. That explains all you need to know about your accuracy problems.

Care to elaborate, or is this just a drive-by?

[frumious]

totaldla,

Thanks again for the words of wisdom. I typed up the OP in near-complete disgust...I really was ready to give up the lead in favor of the jacketed rounds. But now that I have shot lead successfully with the reduced load I am feeling a lot better about them. Plus, I can save an additional 15+% by shooting lead (my original reason for using lead).

I guess I just need to get some kind of 4198 and work up the lead bullets starting at high trapdoor or low Marlin levels. That is, if I am determined to shoot lead bullets at Marlin velocities. Your point about .45's performing well at any decent velocity is not lost on me. With that logic I can just work up some trapdoor rounds with 3031 and be fine for hunting white-tails/pigs/etc. Maybe that's what I'll do.

-cls

[Rifleman1776]

It is a Marlin. That explains all you need to know about your accuracy problems.

Care to elaborate, or is this just a drive-by?

Not drive by, whatever that is.
Experience.
I, obviously, am not a Marlin fan.
Their "micro-groove" rifling is worst than no-groove rifling. BTW, I am a traditional muzzle loading enthusiast. I can shoot a ball from a smoothbore flintlock with more accuracy than I ever got from a Marlin lever gun.
Only the lowest velocity factory ammo will work even reasonably well in Marlins. That is my experience. I wouldn't take a Marlin as a gift.

[totaldla]

frumious: If you happen by a store that sells reloading stuff, pick up a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox. Follow the directions and tumble lube some of your .459" stuff. Let them dry for a day or so then load load up 10 with your original "hotter" loadings. See how they do. You may be surprised. After 5 or 6 shots you should have a lube donut forming on the muzzle crown, if not you will start keyholing before you get to 10.

[44 AMP]

My old Lyman manual from the 1970s lists 36.5gr IMR 3031 under a 400gr bullet as factory duplication load. Yes, this is blackpowder speeds, but animals don't seem to know that.

I have shot it out of a Marlin 1895, T/C Contender, Ruger No.3 and Siamese Mauser, without any of the problems of leading or poor accuracy.

IMHO, you are pushing your bullet too hard, for what it is. Reducing your load or switching to a harder cast bullet should solve the problems.

[frumious]

LLA, huh? I am just now reading the glowing reviews on Midway's site. You think this stuff might help? I can drop by a store tomorrow and pick some up. Hmm....

Thanks again. Range report in a few days....

-cls

P.S. 44AMP, I'll probably try both LLA and reducing the 3031 loads. One will probably work.

[Edward429451]

frumious, I addressed both of your problems. You said you had leading and poor accuracy. Leading went away for me with .460 boolits, and accuracy is in cans of RX7.

[frumious]

Right, Edward, and thanks. But multiple points about your post...my very next post had questions about your advice...not sure if you saw that so I'll repeat here:

Edward429451, I don't follow your logic...you indicate .460 diameter bullets are required for your gun, but that all I need is some Reloader-7? How will RX7 solve my problem if what I really need is .460 bullets?

Also, Edward, I indicated in the OP that I do not cast. So I am not sure how to come up with lead bullets of a specific diameter. I looked at Penn bullets, as they are the only outfit I know of that will size to order on all their bullets. But their 45-70 bullets only go to .459. Of course, I don't know every corner of the internet...do you know a place I can buy .460 45-70 non-gas-check bullets?

-cls

[frumious]

Just reading back over this thread...I re-noticed a nod from TXGunNut to Carolina Bullets. So I went to their website and found their 350 gr RNFL "Ranch Dog" bullet at .460 - "specially for Marlin leverguns". And good pricing, too!

In other news I was able to pick up some LLA on lunch, so I will be trying that tonight. May have to use the hair-dryer-assist for drying as I intend to load LLA-lubed bullets up tomorrow morning and give them a try.

If those and/or reduced 3031 loads do not work, then I will probably give Carolina Bullets a shot. Thanks, TXGunNut!

-cls

[totaldla]

frumious: I use a cut out milk jug to tumble in. I know you won't get it right first time (nobody does), but just start with a single squirt. You only want a light film on the bullets, but the light film doesn't look like enough. I dump them out on a sheet of butcher wrap, (wax paper would work good too), and let them dry. If your wife will let you get away with it, you can put them in a warm (<150*F) to speed up the drying, but the smell is strong. Hair dryer will probably work too - just don't melt off the original lube. Make sure the LLA is warmed to room temp before using, otherwise the stuff is too thick to squeeze out. The Lee instructions are pretty good. Have fun!

[TXGunNut]

You're welcome, my friend. Drop by Ranch Dog's website to read up on his boolits. I haven't tried them yet but they're on my wish list. He likes to cast 'em hard and shoot 'em fast, I'm looking forward to trying them after hunting season.
My Guide Gun is showing a strong preference for 4198 and Rx7 under CB's but I haven't found the "sweet spot" totalda refers to. I'm thinking most 45-70's have more than one "sweet spot", possibly has something to do with projectile weight and barrel length. I think most 45-70's like a load around 1100-1300fps and most GG's have another somewhere between 16-1800fps. I've heard rumors of another sweet spot around 2000 fps w/ the lighter boolits but I'm not going there until TX P&W Dept opens a T-Rex season.
Thought that was 38.5grs 3031 under a 405, 45amp. At least that's what my 45th edition says. 30 grs 2400 under a 300 or a 405 works pretty well too in a friend's 1895, mine likes it too. Both rifles also like 50 grs 3031 under both RP bullets as well if you like a bit more oomph.

[frumious]

OK, almost ready for the range. Got the next working-up loads of jacketed 300's and 405's loaded up, plus 10 of the lead 405's @ 35.1 grains 3031 (just over starting Trapdoor load). Additionally, got 10 more of the 405's with a light coating of LLA drying on a piece of wax paper. Will load those over 47.1 grains 3031 (starting Marlin load which leaded badly) in the morning.

I emailed Carolina bullets and received a reply from Jerry regarding their 350 gr RNFL "Ranch Dog" bullet at .460 - seems it is a gas-checked bullet and comes pre-lubed with an LLA "variation...that has been proved to reduce leading at higher velocities". These bullets are also BHN 18. So...gas check, LLA pre-applied, bigger diameter, literally everything the doctors ordered If I get some (and I probably will, what the heck), and I still get leading, then it just wasn't meant to be

Range report tomorrow (er, later today).

-cls

[hornetguy]

Frumious... Are you going to Winchester or perhaps Garland range? I was thinking about taking my Marlin out to Garland sometime this weekend. Being in Carrollton, you're closer to Winchester, I imagine.

I'm in Allen... give me a shout sometime, we can compare notes over coffee or a cold one..

[hornetguy]

Not drive by, whatever that is.
Experience.
I, obviously, am not a Marlin fan.
Their "micro-groove" rifling is worst than no-groove rifling. BTW, I am a traditional muzzle loading enthusiast. I can shoot a ball from a smoothbore flintlock with more accuracy than I ever got from a Marlin lever gun.
Only the lowest velocity factory ammo will work even reasonably well in Marlins. That is my experience. I wouldn't take a Marlin as a gift.

Rifleman... I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with Marlins. I'm a little surprised, as you are the first person I've ever heard of that has had trouble with all their Marlins.
Everyone that I know of has had at LEAST good to very good accuracy from Marlin rifles. I've heard a few say they have problems getting cast lead to shoot well from micro-groove barrels, but nearly all of those changed their tune when loading the correctly sized bullet.
I've owned two different 30-30 rifles, an 1894 in .44 mag, and now an 1895 in 45-70. All of them have easily been capable of 2 MOA, and were usually better than that, when I did my part right.

[Edward429451]

How will RX7 solve my problem if what I really need is .460 bullets?

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that RX7 shoots real well for me with many different cast boolits. I feel that if you try RX7 you will have good accuracy with it also. You may indeed need the .460 dia.

[grubbylabs]

If you shoot me a PM I might be able to help you with some .460 boolits.

[TXGunNut]

I wouldn't take a Marlin as a gift. -Rifleman1776

+1 on hornetguy's sentiment and experience. I wish they would make their bores a bit tighter but they are what they are.
I respect and understand your opinion, Rifleman. Just leaves more Marlins for the rest of us.

[frumious]

Edward429451, thanks for the clarification; I understand now. I may pick up some RX7 or similar faster powder and see what happens.

hornetguy, sorry, I didn't see your post until now. I go to Garland and I was there today from about 3 pm until about 6pm. Will have to catch you next time. Also I will have to look up Winchester range...I must confess I've never heard of it. Where is it?

The short version of the range report is that the .459's with Alox shot just as poorly when paired with 47.1 grains of 3031 as they did uncoated. However, the uncoated .459's shot fine with the more Trapdoor-ish load of 35.1 grains of 3031 (which I see was suggested by Loader9, thanks!). So 3031 is not a lost cause with this bullet as long as velocities are held lower. If I want higher velocity with this bullet I think the only thing left to try is a different powder - RX7 as Edward429451 suggested or maybe one of the 4198's.

In other news the 300 grain Hornady hollow points shot into about .75" at 50 yards with all the loads I tried, and the 405 grain Remington soft points shot into about 1.5".

So at this point I have to step back and ask myself what my goal is. I am just starting out as a hunter and originally bought the gun a couple months ago to hunt feral hogs with my father-in-law on his deer lease. Might get a chance to shoot a whitetail too, who knows? But mostly hogs probably. So anyway I wanted to work up a good, maybe even affordable, hunting load. I also like to just plink away at the range, so I wanted a plinking load too, and that *has* to be affordable.

Well, the Trapdoor 3031 load and the Green Dot load both push the 405 grain lead bullet to 1100-1200 FPS, both exhibit 1" group size at 50 yards, and both are pleasant to shoot. So it seems like those are good plinking rounds. Probably hunting rounds too, at least for small game like squirrel and rabbit

The heavy 3031 loads push the 300 grain Hornady HP to around 1800 FPS. This should be a GREAT hunting round. Also not too hard on the shoulder.

So I've got my plinker, and I've got my hunter. I am really tempted to pause here for a while, maybe for good. I have to admit I am curious if a different powder is all I need in order to make these 405 grain .459's shoot faster. And I'm also curious how those gas-checked 350 grain .460's from Carolina Bullets will work. So I may try one or the other or both. Will keep you guys posted if I do. Just not sure at this point.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the help and suggestions.

-cls

[Jim Watson]

Well, it is not like plinking with a mag-numb with 1500 round barrel accuracy life, you can shoot pretty much forever with cast bullets. So research all you have the time to fool with.

Oh, by the way, in 1873 a 405 grain bullet at 1100-1200 fps was not a plinking load, it was considered suitable to go to war with or hunt any creature on the continent. The pigs have not gotten tougher in the past 138 years.

[Dr. A]

DLA was right on all accounts as you saw. The Carolina bullets, if sized. 460, can be shot as fast or as slow as you want, providing adequate lube. Most folks frustrated with handloading microgroove marlins have simply not tried it long enough. I have a multitude of loads, both jacketed and lead. Most of what I shoot is lead for fun. 13gr. Of unique and a 405 gr lead bullet or for hunting, 25gr of 2400. Be careful to not overcharge. Many other loads available. The bullets you have are probably best shot at 1500fps or under.

[flashhole]

frumious - I don't believe a different powder that steps up velocity will do anything to decrease leading. The leading issue for that specific bullet is associated with how fast the bullet is moving down the barrel, not with the specific powder that is making it go that fast.

An excellent load for my Guide Gun is the Hornady 350 grain RN (or FN) bullet over a max charge of H4895. The chrony put it at 1962fps average velocity.

[TXGunNut]

frumious - I don't believe a different powder that steps up velocity will do anything to decrease leading. The leading issue for that specific bullet is associated with how fast the bullet is moving down the barrel, not with the specific powder that is making it go that fast. -flashhole


I'm not so sure, flashhole. May seem like splitting hairs but it often seems the muzzle velocity is only part of the story. How a projectile goes from rest to MV is important as well, IMHO. An optimal powder for a given load allows the bullet to gain speed gradually over its travel down the bore, a faster powder builds pressure more quickly and can effect the way a bullet engages the rifling. I suspect your H4895 load is gradually building pressure until the moment the bullet leaves the muzzle. A faster powder would deform your bullet more and possibly cause it to slip a bit on the rifling even if it delivered the same MV. A slower powder would possibly not completely burn before the bullet reached the muzzle and could deliver the same average velocity as well but there would be more variation.
This is more critical for the cast bullets OP is having issues with but affects jacketed bullets as well.

[flashhole]

My money is still on the frictional activity encountered by the bullet contacting the rifle barrel at high velocity outweighing the burn rate of the powder as a cause of leading. What would the difference in barrel travel time be between suitable powders for the same bullet ... a few nano seconds?

[TXGunNut]

I think you're right, velocity is a bigger factor but if I can achieve a higher velocity without damaging the bullet I'll get less leading and better performance on target as well.
A bullet's travel time is relative, it's "lifetime" is a few seconds at most. What happens in the bore takes place in a very short time but it has a huge effect on what happens later on in it's "life".