|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 28, 2008, 07:15 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
|
Chicago Gun Ban Case & Incorporation
In case no one was watching...
One of the byproducts of Heller was the filing of a challenge to Chicago's gun ban laws. Rather than taking years to bring up the matter of incorporation, two cases are now looking at the question. The first is the Nordyke, et al v. King, et al case, for which you can find detail information on this thread. Here is the latest on the Chicago Case McDONALD, et al v. City of Chicago (08-CV-3645) 10/21/2008 Gura's MOTION TO NARROW LEGAL ISSUES (Incorporation) 7/31/2008 MOTION TO STRIKE CITY OF CHICAGO’S ANSWER TO PLAINTIFFS’ COMPLAINT Gura's MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT 7/16/2008 CITY OF CHICAGO’S ANSWER TO PLAINTIFFS’ COMPLAINT, DEFENSE, AND JURY DEMAND 6/26/2008 COMPLAINT against City of Chicago Gura's Motion to Narrow Legal Issues asks the court to decide the incorporation question in favor of the people against Chicago. It says that the 14th amendment was designed to overturn (by legislation) Barron v. Baltimore, and to correct state abridgements of the rights of freed blacks, including the right to arms, in the post-civil war era. The argument is bolstered by showing a majority of legal scholars believe The Slaughter-House Cases were wrongly decided and even shows the late Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice Thomas were open to reviewing the decision. He also argues that by the modern incorporation doctrine, the 2A rights should easily pass the incorporation tests. The motion also covers how the courts have used the 14th Amendment to protect unenumerated rights by citing a right-to-die case and a Planned Parenthood abortion case. He juxtiposes the protection of these unlisted rights with the trampling of an enumerated right explicit in the constution. He also shreds Chicago's reliance on Cruikshank , Presser and Miller v. Texas (1894) which are pre-incorporation doctrine cases. This undercuts the majority of the city's arguments and makes a persuasive case for incorporating the 2A against the states.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately) |
October 30, 2008, 11:32 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
|
From my limited investigations, it would seem that arguing for 2nd Amendment incorporation should be fairly straightforward. Let's hope Gura has found an approprate case and audience.
|
October 30, 2008, 02:51 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 8, 2004
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,457
|
Doesn't he have another case going in the 9th Circuit?
__________________
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams |
October 30, 2008, 08:07 PM | #5 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
The good news is that incorporation argument is incredibly strong - even stronger than the individual rights argument for the Second in my opinion.
The questionable news is that there are so many judicial appointments up for grab that the next President will appoint a slew of District Court judges and determine the majorities on 9 of the 13 Circuit Courts of Appeals. Even if the Supreme Court remains unchanged, the cost and challenge of getting good cases to it will increase a lot. We have some very strong arguments; but it doesn't hurt to be able to shape the battlefield to favor your success. |
October 31, 2008, 01:34 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2007
Location: Western,WI
Posts: 243
|
Quote:
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington 1911s and V-twin sport bikes make me happy. |
|
October 31, 2008, 06:10 AM | #7 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Cost increases because you have to fight every little motion and side issue along the way in addition to the main issue of incorporation. For example, the trial court may not even hear certain evidence if you don't first win the battle on getting it admitted.
|
November 1, 2008, 05:26 PM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
|
Quote:
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately) |
|
December 6, 2008, 01:15 AM | #9 | ||
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Updte on the NRA v Chicago Case
Well, well! It looks like the two combined cases, NRA v. Oak Park and NRA v. Chicago were first to be heard (Before the McDonald case) and have had their first setback.
The Judge ruled that he wouldn't overule the 7th Cicuit, and wouldn't incorporate. Since no incorporation, the rest of the controversy is moot. The ordinances stand. Dec. 9th will be a hearing on the status of these cases. No real surprise here. So we can expect the NRA to appeal. The Judge supplied a bit of humor here. He starts off with: Quote:
Quote:
That was the highlight. Otherwise, the Judge simply reitierated what the 7th said 25 years ago about Presser, along with cherry-picking the dicta in Heller. |
||
December 6, 2008, 03:31 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
It sounds like the court felt bound by precedent, but didn't disagree with the logic nor doubt likelihood of success on appeal. I wasn't able to attach it because of the file size, but here's what the court said:
Quote:
|
|
December 6, 2008, 06:39 AM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 1,310
|
Quote:
__________________
Caveat Emperor |
|
December 6, 2008, 09:49 AM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,903
|
I also do not view this as a setback, but an anticipated hurdle that would only be overcome at the appellate level. The trial court is supposed to be bound by Circuit precedent "even though the logic of more recent caselaw may point in a different direction." The judge followed the rules and did what he had to do.
NRA Memorandum Opinion and Order Quote:
|
|
December 6, 2008, 11:56 AM | #13 | ||
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Quote:
This means an unnecessary trip to the 7th, then a trip to SCOTUS, where cert will likely be denied (the issue may not be ripe - legalese for they will wait to see what the other Circuits do). Quote:
The 9th circuit is not bound by these rules, and the 9th may well incorporate (via Nordyke) before this case reaches the 7th. Even so, I suspect the 7th will dismiss anything the 9th does and force the issue to the SCOTUS. |
||
December 6, 2008, 02:55 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
I can't tell if this is the court's ideology speaking, or if they really think they are being prudent. To this layman, it seems like the court's reasoning here is just highbrow means for circumventing common sense in the name of politics.
If you just ask any person on the street with an IQ above room temperature, "Does the entire bill of right apply to all citizens?" The answer would be yes. But the court, in all it's wisdom, says "no." Or, at least, "not necessarily." |
December 7, 2008, 06:57 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
|
It sounds like the current precedent is not favorable for this fight. I agree that SCOTUS may not hear the case (should it advance that far, which I think is likely). Given the 5-4 nature of Heller, I'd be a bit concerned. Have the SCOTUS justices commented on incorporation recently (not necessarily wrt the 2nd Amendment)?
|
December 9, 2008, 12:59 PM | #16 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Today's WSJ reporting that Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich has been arrested by federal agents on corruption charges. Apparently he was offering to sell Obama's Senate seat. Given his past strong support of gun control and influential role in Illinois/Chicago politics, I wonder if it will change the strategy being used?
|
December 9, 2008, 01:54 PM | #17 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Quote:
In the Heller case, the Supreme Court left the idea of incorporation open. That was correct, as the case was about a federal enclave and incorporation was not an issue. Could not be an issue in fact. In this court, we have a Federal District court that is bound by prior precedent from its higher authority, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. Remember, the Circuit Court tells its lower (district) courts what and how to do things, not the other way around. In Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove, the 7th Circuit essentially used Presser to justify not only, non-incorporation, but also the idea that the 2A, if an individual right, applied only to the Federal Government and not lower governments. Presser relied almost solely upon Cruickshank, which, in dicta, was discredited by Heller. Now the 7th Circuit, could overturn its own precedent and incorporate. I honestly don't think that's likely, however. I expect them to use the same set of cases (Sabin v. United States Dep't of Labor and United States v. Santiago-Ochoa) and logic, to hold to their precedent. It is only if the 7th Circuit rejects incorporation (on whatever grounds) that this case may move forward to the SCOTUS. Such a time frame would put cert, most likely in the spring 2011 session. In the meantime, we have Nordyke in the 9th Circuit. This will be argued on Jan 15th. If Nordyke is incorporated (very good chance, as the panel appears to be for such), it will be appealed en banc. The soonest this case may hit the SCOTUS would be the fall 2009 or spring 2010 sessions, depending upon if the en banc request is granted. However it turns out, I suspect that the SCOTUS will wait to see where the other Circuits fall on the issue, before granting any cert on the issue. |
|
December 9, 2008, 03:40 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Excellent. I had to look up en banc. Would en banc literally mean all the judges from the circuit court deciding this issue together? Is it often granted when precedent is about to be overturned, and is this proceeding fairly rare? I'm pretty sure i've never come across the term. Thanks, Al.
|
December 9, 2008, 07:33 PM | #19 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Quote:
I'll let someone else comment on how often it's used by any particular Circuit. I know it's done, but I don't have a clue as to the criteria or how many Judges will even review the case. I would bet that each Circuit is different in its approach. What I've seen, is that generally, after a panel has ruled, requesting an en banc hearing appears to be the normal thing before going to the SCOTUS. |
|
December 10, 2008, 08:34 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
|
En Banc Hearings
maestro,
From what I've seen, once an appeals court accepts the appeal, it schedules it for a hearing before 3 of the circuit judges (or 4 judges if that's the entire lineup). The appellant can request an en banc hearing before the entire panel of judges. Usually this request is made when a significant constitutional or procedural issue is at issue. It is also frequently done when a 3-judge panel rejects and appeal and the appellant believes an error has been made. If a request for a re-hearing en banc is denied, AFAIK that is the same as a ruling en banc for the purposes of appealing to SCOTUS. The Court itself can decide to hear the appeal en banc if it believes a particularly significant or unique issue is at stake too.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately) |
December 11, 2008, 06:11 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Thanks, Bill
|
May 26, 2009, 04:19 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Chicago Gun Ban Argument JUST IN!
Oral Argument in McDonald/NRA v. Chicago:
http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/fdocs/do...8-4241_001.mp3 Notice how often Halbrooke and Gura are interrupted by the court and what a free ride the Chicago attorney gets. This appears headed to the Supreme Court, because the court feel only the SCOTUS can overrule it's own precedent, no matter how antiquated by modern selective incorporation doctrine those cases may be. That's the reason they gave, but the court is nevertheless obviously predisposed to allow any kind of gun ban to stand. Here we go. Last edited by maestro pistolero; May 26, 2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Grammar |
May 26, 2009, 05:54 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2007
Location: Western,WI
Posts: 243
|
Oral arguments
The oral arguments were this morning,linky to quicktime recording.
My impression is that they are not going to over rule Quilici. Apparently they got burned once upon a time for over ruling a previous SCOTUS case. They were dismissive of the 14th amendment arguments and wish to leave Slaughterhouse and Presser standing in all their racist glory.
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington 1911s and V-twin sport bikes make me happy. Last edited by crashm1; May 26, 2009 at 08:38 PM. |
May 26, 2009, 06:09 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Maybe the best thing that could happen is for this to go to the SCOTUS, and do away with Slaughterhouse once and for all.
Last edited by maestro pistolero; May 26, 2009 at 07:16 PM. |
May 26, 2009, 08:50 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2007
Location: Western,WI
Posts: 243
|
Yeah maestro the judges tone was superior, condescending, argumentative and rude. Doesn't leave much hope.
__________________
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington 1911s and V-twin sport bikes make me happy. |
|
|