What can you get with a class III liscense?

C Philip · February 18, 2005, 11:37 PM

I was wondering exactly what you can get if you get a regular class 3 permit, just with a normal civillian filling out the paper work. What kind of full auto guns would I be able to purchase? What type of silencers? I was looking at an FN p90, and maybe an HK MP5 or a Colt M4A1 and would like to know if a normal class 3 permit would allow me to buy these guns. Are "select fire" guns covered with a class 3? What is the difference between class 3 weapon and something classified as a "destructive device?" I am interested in purchasing a M-203 (a small grenade launcher attachment for an M16) and I have no idea what kind of liscense or paperwork I need to do to buy something like that, or if that is covered under a class 3 liscense. Please explain this to me. Thanks alot.

Hkmp5sd · February 19, 2005, 12:13 AM

There is no "class III license." You get a normal FFL and then get an SOT to cover dealing, manufacturing, importing, etc. Unless you plan on actually operating a business with all that that entails, don't waste your time.

Even if you went through the entire (and very expensive) process of setting up a firearms business with appropriate SOTs, you still could only get a P90 if some government agency provided you with a written request for a demonstration of that firearm.

If you merely want to buy machineguns, suppressors, ect., you can do that without any license, provided it is legal in your state. For example, you can buy a transferrable M16 by filling out the paperwork and paying a one-time "transfer tax" of $200 to the government.

C Philip · February 19, 2005, 12:55 AM

What is special about the p90 that I can not get it? It is a normal machine gun correct? Why is an M16 able to be purchased but not a p90? Is it because it is a PDW? What about getting an HK PDW such as the MP7?

Crosshair · February 19, 2005, 01:56 AM

So does that mean I don't need a class 3 to have a short barrel shotgun, supressor, etc. I just need to pay the tax and file some paperwork? Can someone illustrate the process.

shaggy · February 19, 2005, 06:42 AM

Here's the deal folks...

Think of it as there being two levels of C3 ownership - that as a dealer/manufacturer and that as a regular, John Q. Citizen. If you're going to be a dealer/manufacturer you can get a wider variety of weapons (more on that later), but there is more paperwork involved, annual fees, possible BATFE inspections, and a legal requirement to actually do business. If you just get a license to enhance your own personal firearms collection, BATF can pull your license and possibly bring charges of tax evasion. Unless you really have police contacts and/or the capital and desire to sell to the public, do not get a dealers/manufacturers license.

As a regular John Q Citizen, you can purchase a number of machineguns, suppressors, Any Oher Weapons (AOWs), Short Barreled Rifles/Shotguns (SBR/SBS), and Destructive Devices (DD). Of those six categories machineguns are is the only one where there s a limitation on what you can buy. On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act was enacted which although containing some good measures for fun owners, also carried a provision to ban the sale of machineguns manufactured after that date to civilians. Thus if you want a machinegun, it has tobe one that was made and properly registered prior to May 19, 1986. This date restriction does not apply to dealers/manufacturers, but again, there is a lot more paperwork, fees, liabilities, and legal requirements for a dealer/manufacturer's license.

Of the five categories of NFA weapons other than machineguns you (as a regular Joe, non-licensee, non-dealer/manufacturer) can buy the latest, most up to date things. In common parlance, machineguns eligible for civilian possession are known as "transferables".

There are also machineguns known as "pre-86 samples" and post-86 samples. These two terms deal with machineguns made before and after the May 19 cutoff date, neither of which is eligible for civilian possession based upon the date of the manufacture (after the May 19 cutoff date) or their importation (after the 1968 GCA).

Thus, you can see why as a regular citizen you can own an M16, but not a P90 - its all about the date of manufacture and importation, and the law (18 USC 922(o)). For example, there are many M16's which you can buy as an individual, but you cannot buy a P90 or G36. You can buy an MG42 but not an MG3. There are converted HK94s and a very few factory MP5's, but no UMP's for civilians. Just remember, for it to be available to John Q. Citizen, it had to be made AND properly registered prior to May 19, 1986.

The process is relatively easy, although a little difficult to understand at first, and long. YOu can make any NFA wepon on your own (except machineguns) by completing a BATF/NFA form 1. You can also buy any NFA weapon (including transferable machineguns) from a dealer in your state or an individual in your state by completing a form 4. Both the form 1 and the form 4 are available to download at www.titleii.com

You'll need to complete TWO copies of the applicable form, ONE copy of a US Citizenship certification (also available on www.titleii.com), TWO FBI fingerprint cards (available through BATF/NFA), and a check for the proper transfer or making tax ($200 for all cases, except the transfer of an AOW which is $5). When completing the form 1 or form 4, you'll have to go to your sheriff, chief of police, or district attorney to get a "sign-off" on the forms, so you should call and see if someone there wil sign the forms for you. Its basically a certification for them, that says they have no reason to believe you'll use the weapon in an illegal manner, or your possession would be in violation of the law. Please note, this official has to have jurisdiction in your county, city or municipality. They cannot be from the next county, and it has to be she sheriff, DA, etc who signs the forms - NOT a secretary, assistant, or the deputy unless they have a specific grant of authority to do so. If they do not sign (and there is no legal requirement for them to do so - it is completely discretionary) there are ways around it, but it gets more expensive and complicated - basically you need to form a corporation.

Assuming they'll sign, however, you get both copies ofthe form 1 or 4, both firgerprint cars, the citizenship certification, and the tax check, and send it all to BATF/NFA. In about 3-4 months, either you or your dealer will get back ONE copy of the approved form 4 or form 1 (F4 goes to the seller, F1 goes to you). At that point, you can begin to make your NFA weapon (if on a form 1) or take possession of your NFA weapon (if on a F4).

C Philip · February 19, 2005, 10:30 AM

Thanks alot for explaining that to me. So are you saying that I can get a new DD such as the M-203 grenade launcher but not a new machine gun? I find that a little strange, but I guess I have to deal with it.

shaggy · February 19, 2005, 10:54 AM

Yup, thats what I'm sayin'.

Its just that the FOPA '86 cutoff newly manufactured machineguns (anything made after May 19, 1986) for civilian possession. Old ones that were properly registered prior to the law were grandfathered. There was no similar cutoff for DD's, suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, or AOW's though.

Since you mentioned an M203, please be aware that just because you get an M203 doen't mean HE 40mm rounds are available to you. In addition to the M203 itself, EACH HE round would be a DD by itself and require a $200 tax. And thats IF you could find someone willing to make or sell them to you. In reality the best things you can do with an M203 are the 18-shot .22 rounds, smokes, flares, and chalks.

Hkmp5sd · February 19, 2005, 11:38 AM

Shaggy,

That's one of the best NFA explainations I've seen!

shaggy · February 19, 2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Shaggy,

That's one of the best NFA explainations I've seen!

Thanks.

Amazing what you can do with the right mix of boredom, insomnia, and a hangover at about 7am.

WillBrayjr · February 19, 2005, 01:37 PM

Actually some states do require you to have a ClassIII lisence.

gifted · February 19, 2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Actually some states do require you to have a ClassIII lisence.

A state requirement. What Shaggy went over was the federal regulations. Some states outlaw class III. Check the appropriate authority for details.

WillBrayjr · February 19, 2005, 07:28 PM

Not in Indiana. Paperwork with the BATF Tax Stamp and you're all set.

Casp_A · February 19, 2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

In reality the best things you can do with an M203 are the 18-shot .22 rounds, smokes, flares, and chalks.

Or slugs made from 1.5" wooden dowels!!!

I want an M79.

Class III is illegal in Cali.

Crosshair · February 20, 2005, 10:16 AM

I better put in that app for that RPG-7 I've been craving.

February 18, 2005, 11:37 PM	#1
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	What can you get with a class III liscense? I was wondering exactly what you can get if you get a regular class 3 permit, just with a normal civillian filling out the paper work. What kind of full auto guns would I be able to purchase? What type of silencers? I was looking at an FN p90, and maybe an HK MP5 or a Colt M4A1 and would like to know if a normal class 3 permit would allow me to buy these guns. Are "select fire" guns covered with a class 3? What is the difference between class 3 weapon and something classified as a "destructive device?" I am interested in purchasing a M-203 (a small grenade launcher attachment for an M16) and I have no idea what kind of liscense or paperwork I need to do to buy something like that, or if that is covered under a class 3 liscense. Please explain this to me. Thanks alot.

February 19, 2005, 12:13 AM	#2
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	There is no "class III license." You get a normal FFL and then get an SOT to cover dealing, manufacturing, importing, etc. Unless you plan on actually operating a business with all that that entails, don't waste your time. Even if you went through the entire (and very expensive) process of setting up a firearms business with appropriate SOTs, you still could only get a P90 if some government agency provided you with a written request for a demonstration of that firearm. If you merely want to buy machineguns, suppressors, ect., you can do that without any license, provided it is legal in your state. For example, you can buy a transferrable M16 by filling out the paperwork and paying a one-time "transfer tax" of $200 to the government. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

February 19, 2005, 12:55 AM	#3
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	What is special about the p90 that I can not get it? It is a normal machine gun correct? Why is an M16 able to be purchased but not a p90? Is it because it is a PDW? What about getting an HK PDW such as the MP7? Last edited by mmalloy27; February 19, 2005 at 01:29 AM.

February 19, 2005, 06:42 AM	#5
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Here's the deal folks... Think of it as there being two levels of C3 ownership - that as a dealer/manufacturer and that as a regular, John Q. Citizen. If you're going to be a dealer/manufacturer you can get a wider variety of weapons (more on that later), but there is more paperwork involved, annual fees, possible BATFE inspections, and a legal requirement to actually do business. If you just get a license to enhance your own personal firearms collection, BATF can pull your license and possibly bring charges of tax evasion. Unless you really have police contacts and/or the capital and desire to sell to the public, do not get a dealers/manufacturers license. As a regular John Q Citizen, you can purchase a number of machineguns, suppressors, Any Oher Weapons (AOWs), Short Barreled Rifles/Shotguns (SBR/SBS), and Destructive Devices (DD). Of those six categories machineguns are is the only one where there s a limitation on what you can buy. On May 19, 1986 the Firearms Owners Protection Act was enacted which although containing some good measures for fun owners, also carried a provision to ban the sale of machineguns manufactured after that date to civilians. Thus if you want a machinegun, it has tobe one that was made and properly registered prior to May 19, 1986. This date restriction does not apply to dealers/manufacturers, but again, there is a lot more paperwork, fees, liabilities, and legal requirements for a dealer/manufacturer's license. Of the five categories of NFA weapons other than machineguns you (as a regular Joe, non-licensee, non-dealer/manufacturer) can buy the latest, most up to date things. In common parlance, machineguns eligible for civilian possession are known as "transferables". There are also machineguns known as "pre-86 samples" and post-86 samples. These two terms deal with machineguns made before and after the May 19 cutoff date, neither of which is eligible for civilian possession based upon the date of the manufacture (after the May 19 cutoff date) or their importation (after the 1968 GCA). Thus, you can see why as a regular citizen you can own an M16, but not a P90 - its all about the date of manufacture and importation, and the law (18 USC 922(o)). For example, there are many M16's which you can buy as an individual, but you cannot buy a P90 or G36. You can buy an MG42 but not an MG3. There are converted HK94s and a very few factory MP5's, but no UMP's for civilians. Just remember, for it to be available to John Q. Citizen, it had to be made AND properly registered prior to May 19, 1986. The process is relatively easy, although a little difficult to understand at first, and long. YOu can make any NFA wepon on your own (except machineguns) by completing a BATF/NFA form 1. You can also buy any NFA weapon (including transferable machineguns) from a dealer in your state or an individual in your state by completing a form 4. Both the form 1 and the form 4 are available to download at www.titleii.com You'll need to complete TWO copies of the applicable form, ONE copy of a US Citizenship certification (also available on www.titleii.com), TWO FBI fingerprint cards (available through BATF/NFA), and a check for the proper transfer or making tax ($200 for all cases, except the transfer of an AOW which is $5). When completing the form 1 or form 4, you'll have to go to your sheriff, chief of police, or district attorney to get a "sign-off" on the forms, so you should call and see if someone there wil sign the forms for you. Its basically a certification for them, that says they have no reason to believe you'll use the weapon in an illegal manner, or your possession would be in violation of the law. Please note, this official has to have jurisdiction in your county, city or municipality. They cannot be from the next county, and it has to be she sheriff, DA, etc who signs the forms - NOT a secretary, assistant, or the deputy unless they have a specific grant of authority to do so. If they do not sign (and there is no legal requirement for them to do so - it is completely discretionary) there are ways around it, but it gets more expensive and complicated - basically you need to form a corporation. Assuming they'll sign, however, you get both copies ofthe form 1 or 4, both firgerprint cars, the citizenship certification, and the tax check, and send it all to BATF/NFA. In about 3-4 months, either you or your dealer will get back ONE copy of the approved form 4 or form 1 (F4 goes to the seller, F1 goes to you). At that point, you can begin to make your NFA weapon (if on a form 1) or take possession of your NFA weapon (if on a F4). Last edited by shaggy; February 19, 2005 at 09:43 AM.

February 19, 2005, 11:38 AM	#8
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Shaggy, That's one of the best NFA explainations I've seen! __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

February 19, 2005, 01:56 AM	#4
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	So does that mean I don't need a class 3 to have a short barrel shotgun, supressor, etc. I just need to pay the tax and file some paperwork? Can someone illustrate the process.

February 19, 2005, 10:30 AM	#6
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Thanks alot for explaining that to me. So are you saying that I can get a new DD such as the M-203 grenade launcher but not a new machine gun? I find that a little strange, but I guess I have to deal with it.

February 19, 2005, 10:54 AM	#7
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Yup, thats what I'm sayin'. Its just that the FOPA '86 cutoff newly manufactured machineguns (anything made after May 19, 1986) for civilian possession. Old ones that were properly registered prior to the law were grandfathered. There was no similar cutoff for DD's, suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, or AOW's though. Since you mentioned an M203, please be aware that just because you get an M203 doen't mean HE 40mm rounds are available to you. In addition to the M203 itself, EACH HE round would be a DD by itself and require a $200 tax. And thats IF you could find someone willing to make or sell them to you. In reality the best things you can do with an M203 are the 18-shot .22 rounds, smokes, flares, and chalks.

February 19, 2005, 01:37 PM	#10
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	Actually some states do require you to have a ClassIII lisence.

February 19, 2005, 07:28 PM	#12
WillBrayjr Junior member Join Date: September 26, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 1,881	Not in Indiana. Paperwork with the BATF Tax Stamp and you're all set.

February 20, 2005, 10:16 AM	#14
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	I better put in that app for that RPG-7 I've been craving.