February 26, 2015, 04:06 PM | #26 |
Member
Join Date: August 23, 2009
Posts: 20
|
Raimius, "Showmebob, I'm wondering what leads you to the conclusion that quick, accurate follow-up shots are not that important in defensive shootings. Is that based on speculation or scientific study?"
Snyper pretty much answered this with his reply "Quick shots can be important, but the tiny fractions of a second difference caused by various grip styles is negligible" I was taught to shoot and assess not shoot, shoot and then assess. Also, I have 3 carry guns that really don't work with thumbs forward grip. (2 semi's and a revolver) I have nothing against thumbs forward it's just not what I think works best for me using multiple types of firearms. Thumbs crossed is the best universal grip for me. I have tea cupped, thumbs forward, thumbs down and crossed, thumbs crossed behind the hammer, strong hand, weak hand and likely a few I've forgotten and still use them all for practice. As a traditional bowhunter for 18 years I realized quickly that deer and elk don't allow you time to take the perfect stance so I practiced for every conceivable situation. Shooting in a defensive situation should be the same. I believe one should learn as many ways to hold a firearm as you can and then you will have options if needed. |
February 26, 2015, 05:46 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to shooting efficiently. The "latest styles" are not always better than what was used before. They are merely different. Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most. http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...e-combat-grip/
__________________
One shot, one kill |
|
February 26, 2015, 06:13 PM | #28 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
But certain techniques have proven themselves more efficient, and certain techniques have been shown to be less efficient. In this case, for quick, accurate shooting either the "thumbs forward" or the "thumb-over-thumb" have been demonstrated to be effective -- when properly used. The "teacup" is demonstrably less efficient. You'll notice that the article you linked to didn't mention the teacup grip as a viable option.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
February 26, 2015, 06:27 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
|
Geeze, you guys.
There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method. Now, really.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
February 26, 2015, 06:35 PM | #30 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
Quote:
Then you have those who are not quite as adventurous, and are comfortable staying where they are. By doing so, those monkeys often tend to stagnate, and deceive themselves as to their skills. The older ways work until something is found to work better. Does that mean they still dont work? Not at all. But if you cant keep up with others around you, who have embraced a new way, then you'd probably do yourself better, by trying to find out why they are and you arent. The only way to know is to try and prove the new way wrong. So far, I really havent been able to do that, with solid (as opposed to gimmicky) methods, and Ive always moved on for the most part. Im not saying Ive totally given up on the old ways, just that I take what part of them that works in certain situations, and embrace them, when needed. I simply use what works best, when needed. I think if youve been around long enough, and have used them all at some point, you know that there really is no "one" way to do things, and that more often than not, you morph through many of them, even unknowingly creating combinations of them as you go, especially if your shooting is reactive and realistic as opposed to static. Quote:
|
||
February 26, 2015, 07:56 PM | #31 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
Quote:
It doesn't mean other techniques are less effective, even if they aren't the current fad Quote:
It did mention the thumbs forward wasn't "better".
__________________
One shot, one kill Last edited by Snyper; February 26, 2015 at 08:06 PM. |
|||
February 26, 2015, 08:04 PM | #32 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
|
Quote:
Following the latest craze isn't always "staying on top" It can also be called following the herd Quote:
__________________
One shot, one kill |
||
February 26, 2015, 08:21 PM | #33 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
Quote:
Quote:
I prefer to try and stay ahead of, or at least in the front the herd, so I keep trying everything and anything I can, that might offer improvement, as it presents itself. Quote:
|
|||
February 26, 2015, 09:45 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2014
Posts: 242
|
Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?
|
February 26, 2015, 11:35 PM | #35 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart, AR
Posts: 1,569
|
Quote:
You really don't want to stand at a line and just draw and use one grip and think you're now good to go. There are grips which provide better recoil control and if your 0.1 of a second quicker shot happens to end the fight (think hit on CNS or opposing weapon) well that would be pretty important. I think it's silly to think otherwise. In defensive shooting, speed and hits on target are paramount. I use thumbs forward for semi-auto two hand training, thumb flagged for the one hand work because that is best for ME. I didn't start out that way 40 years ago. Way back then we stood sideways, stuck one hand in our pocket and extended the pistol in the other hand -tinkered with many types of grips, until I found the current setup. (Tinkered is not 10 rounds, but 100's) Can't really tell you what will work for YOU, but when you find the type of grip YOU will use, then work on dry fire drills until the grip is built automatically. Quote:
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part. |
||
February 27, 2015, 03:15 AM | #36 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,800
|
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
February 27, 2015, 08:00 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
|
^^^^^^^^
Do believe that is called the "it's too heavy to hold" grip.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
February 27, 2015, 10:30 AM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 864
|
Quote:
I tried the thumbs forward for a year, and in certain instances with certain guns I noticed a slight improvement in the accuracy of a long string of rapid fire. But under stress I was reverting back to 20 years of thumbs down habit. And as I mentioned, I found it a little slower to get into this grip. So I gave it up. Plus, the whole exercise of trying something new set my skills back... It took some practice to recover back to where I started from... lesson learned: don't screw around with changing something that basic. For carefully aimed precision target work, I use a variation on the teacup grip. I use it even with heavy recoiling guns like my super red hawk. Both elbows bent, left hand fully carrying the weight of the gun, and the right hand gripping just tight enough. I let the recoil bring the gun straight up, and very little recoil makes back to my shoulders. Observers sometimes advise me to grip the gun tighter... " wow that gun is really pushing you around, you should lock your arms down..." except I can make a 3 inch group at 50 yards, and shoot 70 rounds of hot 300 grain handloads in an afternoon without a problem ... people who "lock down on the gun" can't often do that. Teacup for a combat gun? would not work for me. For someone starting out today, I would advise them to learn the thumbs forward grip as the default style... If they can't make it work, then try something else. But for people who have been shooting for 20, 30, or 40 years, sticking with what works is a very valid decision. Jim |
|
February 27, 2015, 12:17 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
|
The problem with a lot of conversations like this is that some percentage of the participants are really only looking to validate and defend their preferences and prejudices.
Unfortunately, some things objectively work better than others. It's usually the newer techniques which supplant or replace the older ones, not the other way around. Stubborn adherence to something that "worked just fine for ..." <insert old-gun-hero or WW2 reference here> would mean we still fought with prop driven fighter planes and tiger tanks. That kind of nonsense just doesn't hold weight. It's important to know when you simply "like" something better, as opposed to it being demonstrably, objectively better. And no ... it's not "just a matter of opinion".
__________________
__________________ NRA Certified Instructor • NRA Certified RSO • Certified Glock Armorer |
February 27, 2015, 01:12 PM | #40 |
Member
Join Date: August 23, 2009
Posts: 20
|
Coyotewsm Quote:[Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?]
Coyotewsm, I would agree with your statement if all attacks took place with the person standing, the BG guy no closer than 7 feet or so, with no obstructions around and fully able to use their strong side draw. I would not want to stop and think about it. In that situation it would be an automatic response to use what you practice the most. What about when you are sitting in your car? Maybe your sidearm is not on your side. Maybe it's in the console, door pocket or elsewhere. Which side of the car is the attack coming from? Which hand are you forced to shoot from? What if you are injured in one hand or arm? You are on the ground? I think there are lots of possibilities one should consider. Since this has not been mentioned (it's very much worth a try)! http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf and a few photo's http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...grip&FORM=IGRE Training is fun and I like variety, knowledge is power! |
February 27, 2015, 02:12 PM | #41 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,800
|
Please note the following, quoted from the Forum menu description of this forum.
Quote:
I'll say it again, the "proper" grip is what ever gets the job done for you, and keeps both you and the gun from damage. I have handguns ranging in size from a pocket .22 through a Desert Eagle ending up with 14" barrel Contenders. No one gripping style is optimal for all of them in all of the situations I use them. Some style of grip are a very poor idea for some guns and some people. What the combat match shooters are doing this decade might be "demonstrably, objectively better", but that's only true when you are talking about them, or maybe you, and not me. A "better" technique is only better if the shooter can use it better, if they can use it at all. While we put most emphasis on defensive shooting (with good reason), there are other kinds of handgun shooting where the same styles are not as important, or possibly even detrimental. And even in defensive shooting, different people, different guns, different results. What works well for a 6' 250lb size 9 glove wearing 1911A1 shooter might not be the best grip for the 5' 115lb size 6 glove shooting a Colt Agent snubnose, etc.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
February 27, 2015, 03:35 PM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2014
Posts: 242
|
Alright I'll clarify and clear this up. I'm not talking about revolvers, I don't own one. Second I'm talking about deffinsive shooting or the training to do so.
|
February 27, 2015, 04:04 PM | #43 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
In the days when my wife and I were helping coach our youth trapshooting team, we got a lot of experience helping someone change to a technique which offered the potential for better performance. Often one of our shooters reach a plateau and just couldn't seem to improve beyond a certain point. And often the problem was that he was doing something that he thought "worked for him", but it only worked to a point. So we'd work on showing him a better, more generally accepted way. Initially, his performance would deteriorate, and he'd become frustrated. But with continued training and work, he start to get the hang of the better technique and his scores would improve beyond where he have been stuck. That is the common "natural history" of making any change that offers the potential for improvement. Breaking old habits can be hard, and something new might initially seem not to work too well. But the new way can offer greater "up-side" if one sticks with it.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
February 27, 2015, 05:19 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
|
Quote:
You'll note there are a few qualifiers in there! -If you are too close-quarters for a fully extended stance, two hands may not be the best grip. -If you are at an odd angle, the ISO two-handed grip may not be the best. -If you have an unusually large or small pistol, you may need to adapt to that. -If you have an unusual caliber, you may need to adapt to that. |
|
February 27, 2015, 05:25 PM | #45 |
Member
Join Date: August 23, 2009
Posts: 20
|
I really enjoy hearing opinions from other shooters!
|
March 1, 2015, 02:44 PM | #46 |
Member
Join Date: August 13, 2011
Posts: 24
|
This is a really fun video to watch, makes a lot of good points about keeping things simple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s |
March 1, 2015, 02:48 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Fighting with a handgun depends on a few things, carrying a pistol with lots of rounds, is good! You might need them.
One with night sights? Good. It is normally poor light, that you get jumped. One assailant, he has just stabbed you, you lace him with rounds! Why, because you do. A good two handed grip (your preference) if your off arm/hand is damaged, use the one that is good. But no one has ever wished for less rounds in a fight! So use a grip that works on a fat grip. |
March 1, 2015, 03:59 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
Thanks njsco. As with most of his videos, always a good watch.
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|