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Old December 19, 2022, 05:05 AM   #1
Dan31
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One Shot Kill

Seems as the the one shot kill rarely happens, I read other forums and talk to friends that hunt. Is it the caliber rifle they are using that cant get the job done in one shot? I know distance can kill bullet speed a bit but not at the range most shots are taken. If I were to plan a hunt it will either be for elk or moose here in WA. What I don't want is a rifle used only to hunt, more of a dual purpose rifle. A properly built rifle can and does allow for some recoil reduction.
I plan to use another MDT Chassis and a custom action in .338 Lapua which may get a can on it since barrel length will be at 20" or slightly less. WA moose are smaller than the big boys way up north but none the less not small. I shoot .300 Win Mag now and people acted like I would be sore afterwards...nope.
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Old December 19, 2022, 05:12 AM   #2
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I cant wait for the thoughts on this 1, Do you mean 1 shot DRT or just a 1 shot kill which in my experience happens quite often with the right placed rifle shot. DRT is another story altogether, I killed 4 deer this past season, 2 were DRT, 2 which were real well placed shots ran about 30 yds then dropped.
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Old December 19, 2022, 10:01 AM   #3
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A lot of first shots on game are kill shots, even the bad ones. If you want an animal down instantly you have to shut down communication to the brain. That means you have to do severe damage to the Central Nervous System. Traditional heart lung shots will not do that.
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Old December 19, 2022, 06:11 PM   #4
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Number one is shot placement .
Number two is to use enough gun .
Number three is bullet construction . Don't use a Varmit Bullet on a Deer use a proper bullet designed for deer .

I watched my grandfather kill many hogs with a single shot 22 LR Rifle ... one shot was all he ever took and when I questioned his use of the 22 LR on animals as large as a hog he told me ... and I quote ..." Boy it's not what you shot them with ...it's where you shoot them . You shoot through the hogs ear hole and range the bullet into the brain ... dead hog ... and always make the first shot count ... or don't shoot . "
n my mind shot placement is the most important .
Gary

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Old December 19, 2022, 07:22 PM   #5
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Wish there were but ???

Quote:
A lot of first shots on game are kill shots, even the bad ones.
This is true even though as ethical hunters, we do our best. A "Bunny-Hugger" friend of mine did not like it when I told her that I don't like hurting game animals and prefer to kill them. Then at the end of the season, asked me to come over and shoot some squirrels that were raiding her bird feeder.

Be Safe !!!
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Old December 19, 2022, 10:08 PM   #6
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Holy this is a loaded question.

I want to think I've shot 30+ deer in my life gun and bow and 30 percent drt, 2 required a second shot (more for kindness because they were going to die but no need to suffer), and everything else was a 30 yard or less dirt nap. Or should we day running dead.

If you take good shots you will have less weird. For bigger game the only reason I think they say to shoot till they are down and stay down is because that spot might be easier to get the animal out vs where they might run.

I want to think there was a Randy Newberg episode where he was bison hunting and the sucker ran almost all the way to his truck. That's lottery ticket winning for such a heavy animal.
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Old December 19, 2022, 11:48 PM   #7
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I've only shot one deer twice. He was down and couldn't get up and going to die, but the 2nd shot did it quicker. This was a 50 lb GA whitetail hit with a 30-06/165 gr bullet. I literally picked him up with one hand to load in the truck and one shot didn't kill it outright.

I did finish off a bear shot by another hunter with a 2nd shot. Once again, he was dead on his feet, but the 2nd shot kept him from running into thick brush.

The biggest deer I've ever killed ran over 100 yards with a near perfect full penetration shot through the lungs leaving a 2" exit hole. Same 30-06 rifle. Most of the others dropped in their tracks or at most took 2-3 steps.

Even with a perfect shot, and a powerful rifle through the heart or lungs an animal has about 3 minutes to live and can stay on their feet and conscious for 15-30 seconds. What they do during that time can vary a lot. Some lay down and die. Some run and can cover a lot of ground in 15 seconds.

A 6.5CM will kill any game animal in North America if you use the right bullet and place it in the right spot. And do it at ranges farther than most of us can shoot. A 338 LM will do it at 700-1000 yards. Unless you have the skills to shoot that far you'd be better off with something like a 6.5, 7-08 or 308 and learn to shoot accurately.
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Old December 20, 2022, 02:56 PM   #8
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A lot of first shots on game are kill shots, even the bad ones. If you want an animal down instantly you have to shut down communication to the brain. That means you have to do severe damage to the Central Nervous System.
This is correct. I shoot a goodly number of hogs a second time, particularly when I am testing ammo. When I am not trying to learn how the bullets perform in a carcass, I tend to shoot a lot more CNS shots and not worrying about the issue. However, it has been my experience that it can be a helluva lot easier to find a hog that drops in place (whether it be your 1st shot or 5th shot in the animal) than one that runs into the brush that you actually have to search for and find. So I tend to keep shooting until the threat is down and I believe it is dead. Sometimes, I will deliver an additional shot to a downed animal just to be sure. Far too often, hogs will get up after going down and trot away...and likely die someplace else.

Quote:
Even with a perfect shot, and a powerful rifle through the heart or lungs an animal has about 3 minutes to live and can stay on their feet and conscious for 15-30 seconds. What they do during that time can vary a lot. Some lay down and die. Some run and can cover a lot of ground in 15 seconds.
Yes, yes they can. On hogs, I have found that double lung shot and heart shot hogs may run upwards of 100 yards, though it is usually less. 100 yards in a big open grazed field isn't too much of a problem. 100 yards in the woods at night can be a nightmare search. Single lung hit hog can run upwards of 400 yards (sample of 1). Liver shots can run a long ways as well, but usually die pretty quick.

Quote:
Number three is bullet construction . Don't use a Varmit Bullet on a Deer use a proper bullet designed for deer .
Funny thing about design intent is that intent often has little or nothing to do with the final product. That is why we have things like kevlar ballistic vests (kevlar was designed for use in tires and was NOT designed as ballistic protection), viagra (mediocre heart med that works better as erectile dysfunction med), etc. This is because products designed for one thing may not be good at the original intent or just may be so much better when applied elsewhere. This is particularly true with bullets For example, the Hornady AMAX was original designed and marketed for target use. It was originally advertised to NOT be used for hunting. Hunters figured out it worked great for deer and it took a few years before Hornady came around and started advertising for hunting as well as target shooting. Go figure. The modern version ELD-M(atch) bullet seems to garner more favor from hunters than the ELD-X bullet that is designed for hunting, possibly due in part to Hornady's marketing where they don't even bother marketing the ELD-X in a loaded capacity so that only reloaders or handloaders are going to be hunting with them. People are finding that Speer TNT can be used for deer as well in various calibers. I know that in Grendel, it seems to be much less optimal for small game than Hornady V-Max, but that Hornady V-Max is questionable on hogs (in my experience) but that Speer TNT does a great job.

If you know nothing of the ammo you are buying, then stick with the general notion of hunting bullets for hunting bigger game, varmint bullets for smaller game, and target loads for target shooting. That isn't a bad rule of thumb, but it may not be optimal.

What matters is that you target accordingly given the caliber/bullet type that you are using. If you are shooting a bullet that blows up and stops at 8", then you may not want to try a broadside shot on a big buck and definitely not a quartering away double lung shot. A cervical spine shot might be a better use of the round, particularly where damage from the bullet to the spine still occur even without direct targeting...expansion/fragmentation in multiple directions that cause damage to the spine despite the original trajectory of the bullet missing the spine. Some companies even bank on this such as Berger that make bullets that are nothing more than upsized varmint bullets, but for big game.
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Old December 20, 2022, 03:28 PM   #9
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It is a loaded question, pun intended.

First Bull Elk I shot was with a 12g slug. He took 2 steps, bellowed a red mist and expired. Before and after, I used a .30-06 for about 20 years. Most of the time, I pulled the trigger, heard a thump and then found the Elk in a pile where it had been standing. A few took a few or more steps, but none ran more than 1/4 mile. My Dad and FIL used 7mm Mags and their percent of DRT was less. I tracked 2 for one and 3 for the other, from 1 to 5 miles. When I switched to the .338-06, I shot 12 bullets that put 12 Elk straight down. Then I went to Barnes TSX, and with well placed shots, the next 3 Elk went 1/2 mile (tagged by another hunter) 100 yards and I needed to finish it, and about 400 yards. The last, I put 3 bullets into a 2" group and the other 2 were also well placed. First shot was a kill shot, but it was cold and snowing and the sun had just set. Then I went back to Noslers, and 4 more Elk, one shot, dropped in their tracks.

Saturday, I shot an Elk with a 6.5CM, 300 yards. Well placed. She took about 10 steps, summersaulted and died. Took about 10 seconds. 143 ELDx. Only reason I used my Stag .308 pattern AR with a comp because I had neck surgery 6 weeks ago and the Doctor did not want me shooting higher powered rifles. It had about 1/6th of the recoil energy of my .338-06. 39th Elk I have tagged, and probably 200th I have seen shot. I have a strong affinity for .27 caliber and larger and 150 grains or more, so this was a departure, borne of wanting to fill my tag, and several other controls, including 2 19 year olds who got it in the truck for me.

Pronghorn, from 100 to 1000 yards and .22 to .30 caliber, I have seen them drop when I felt the shot was a little far and the bullet a little light, and then run when the shot was close, bullet heavy and well placed.

I've said it once, I will say it again, stuff happens. Use enough energy, well placed, is all we can do. Most of the time it works out perfect. Sometimes it does not. Elk are much tougher, pound for pound than Deer, Hogs or Pronghorn, and I have seen them do amazing climbs up hills with a hole through their heart and a 6" wide, mile long blood trail.
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Old December 20, 2022, 04:07 PM   #10
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No nit picking intended,but for clarity,

The "One shot kill" term is lacking. A gut shot with an inadequate cartridge and military hardball ammo will likely kill, but it may take hours or days of suffering.

We want a quick,merciful death. Foremost,to minimize suffering. Assuming we will eat the animal, we want to minimize meat damage. We want to recover the animal. It helps if they don't travel far after the shot.

These results are dependent upon multiple factors.

Thousands of successful bow and muzzle loader hunters prove every year that its not so much about the gun. We have to credit these HUNTERS with the skills they use to get close and place the shot.

Its true that a skilled hunter CAN use a specialized long range rifle, but consider the more our hunter is DEPENDENT on something like a chassis 338 Lapua......Perhaps the less confident they are in their own ability as a hunter. There are situations where someone with little to no hunting skill can make a "one shot kill" . Whatever thrills you. You can road hunt ,driving around with a 30 lb 50 BMG and shoot from the truck. Or you can arrange/buy a hunt from a heated blind/cabin with a coffee pot, a TV, and a recliner , An Arctic Warrior on a benchrest overwatching a baited field . A weather station with anemometer on the blind roof giving you inputs for the ballistic computer on the bench.

But if you can wear boots and walk, sophisticated equiptment like Dad's sporterized 1903A3 30-06 with a 4x Lyman American scope or Grandpa's Rolling Block in 30-40 Krag or 14 year old Annie's 7-08 Remington can make a clean,quick,merciful kill on any North American game.

If your 300 Winchester is "inadequate" you might try a .308. I find having my eyes open as the rifle recoils makes my gun bigger.
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Old December 21, 2022, 08:23 AM   #11
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You can road hunt ,driving around with a 30 lb 50 BMG and shoot from the truck.
In the US? only until you get caught. Its not legal in any state I know of.

One of the older, now gone gun writers once said "if you have to take a shot at a game animal over 300 yards away, you should be forced to write yourself a letter, longhand, in triplicate, no carbons, explaining exactly why you had to do it.

That may seem a bit extreme, but I fully understand his intent. Sport hunting is about more than just shooting an animal.

While we do not wish to destroy edible meat with multiple shots, one of my early lessons in the deer woods was about how it was more important to recover the deer once shot than, than to risk losing it by not shooting again when needed. I was 16, we were in a party hunt in thick woods and one of the party shot, the buck went down, and he couldn't see it any more. I could see just the back, and that it was moving and so called out what was happening to the others. I could have shot, but didn't, because #1, I could only see the top of the back between the trees, and #2, in my mind, at the time, it wasn't "my" deer to shoot. That deer managed to elude all of us, and die later, we found the carcass on the next weekend's hunt.

I got ...educated a bit (and a bit yelled at) for not understanding that once someone shot a deer, the important thing was to not let it get away, and we could worry about who got to tag it AFTER we had the deer.

Point was, I was expected to have shot the deer, (possibly breaking the back and anchoring the animal) because I could see it, but I didn't understand, that, at the time.

Never had that precise opportunity again, but if I had, I would know better, and that the important thing is to take the animal, cleanly, with one shot if possible, but if it looked like more than one shot was needed, SHOOT IT AGAIN!
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Old December 21, 2022, 10:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
In the US? only until you get caught. Its not legal in any state I know of.
I don't know of any State that specifically bans the cartridge. Idaho has a 16 lb max weight limit on hunting rifles, then there are shotgun only areas, and other states with pistol only, or pistol caliber or straightwall conditions. However, I don't know of any centerfire rifle cartridge legal state that specifically lists the .50 BMG as not legal for big game.
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Old December 21, 2022, 01:20 PM   #13
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I have killed 17 deer on my own property in the last 10 years. All Bucks at least 8 point and most 10 pointers. All at 100 to 150 yards. All shot "Where you are suppose to shot a deer"
Used 30/30-7.62X39-30/06-45/70 and 50. Blackpowder.

15 dropped like "hit by a bolt from above" 2 went maybe 50 yards or less before going down.
All with 1 shot. Frankly, I'm 75 years old and that's been my experience most of my life.
You have to be patient and give your quarry proper respect with a well aimed/placed shot.
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Old December 21, 2022, 03:28 PM   #14
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You have to be patient and give your quarry proper respect with a well aimed/placed shot.
Yes Sir! I hope you get to keep filling the freezer with Venison for many more years.
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Old December 21, 2022, 10:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dan31 View Post
Seems as the the one shot kill rarely happens, I read other forums and talk to friends that hunt. Is it the caliber rifle they are using that cant get the job done in one shot? I know distance can kill bullet speed a bit but not at the range most shots are taken. If I were to plan a hunt it will either be for elk or moose here in WA. What I don't want is a rifle used only to hunt, more of a dual purpose rifle. A properly built rifle can and does allow for some recoil reduction.
I plan to use another MDT Chassis and a custom action in .338 Lapua which may get a can on it since barrel length will be at 20" or slightly less. WA moose are smaller than the big boys way up north but none the less not small. I shoot .300 Win Mag now and people acted like I would be sore afterwards...nope.
I very rarely shoot a deer, hog, yote, or anything else twice. Its been at least 30 years since I shot a deer twice or lost a deer.
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Old December 22, 2022, 01:08 AM   #16
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However, I don't know of any centerfire rifle cartridge legal state that specifically lists the .50 BMG as not legal for big game.
Nor do I, and will admit to not having specifically looked about the .50 BMG round. What I was referring to as illegal is hunting from a motor vehicle (and the road). Its not legal to hunt from a motor vehicle while the motor is running, or on a public road, nor is it legal to hunt from a boat under power, and in some cases, the rules in some places go even further than that. I've heard that up north not only is it not legal to hunt from an aircraft, its not legal to hunt game you've spotted from an aircraft, on the same day...
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Old December 22, 2022, 01:24 PM   #17
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Its certainly NOT my intent to advocate for road or vehicle hunting.

I'll agree that generally it isn't lawful.

The 30 lb 50 BMG was to illustrate the absurd.

While walking in my boots hunting public land I have certainly seen (and been frustrated by) people using 4wd jeeps.pickups, and ATV's to hunt by driving around, or "There they are,lets get them!" Vroom! Or even just sitting in a pickup or camper.

I've had it pointed out to me that chasing pronghorn around with a pickup,jumping out and blazing away at "long range" ,even at a running herd is
"The Western Way of Hunting"

To me,its frustrating to walk in in the dark,get to my spot and wait,only to have pickups driving around trying to get close enough to shoot.
Its not a rare occurrence. My .257 AI weighs 7 lbs with scope. I carry it walking. It kills just fine.

Many of these "long range rifles" are heavy and cumbersome enough that they don't get carried far from a vehicle and in fact, thats the plan. Drive around and shoot at anything you can see.
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Old December 22, 2022, 02:15 PM   #18
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"While walking in my boots hunting public land I have certainly seen (and been frustrated by) people using 4wd jeeps.pickups, and ATV's to hunt by driving around, or "There they are,lets get them!" Vroom! Or even just sitting in a pickup or camper. "

About 10 or 11 years ago I was elk hunting in area 1 in Arizona. I had a cow tag and after a bit of a difficult stalk I was behind the last bit of cover available, a scrubby little bush. I lasered the elk at 530 yards, took up a sitting position and dropped the elk on the spot with my .300 Win. mag. FWIW, for the three months prior to the hunt I was shooting that rifle at least twice a week at ranges from 100 yards to 500 meters on the silhouette range.
I got to my elk and tagged het, then went to the truck to get my wife to help me with the gutting.. As we walked back to my elk we see two guys on ATYVs headed away from where I'd shot my elk, each with half an elk on their ATVs. When I got to where my elk had been, all there was was a gut pile and my torn up elk tag. What really got me mad was there wasn't game warden or other LEO anywhere to be found. Usually, especially in elk season they're all over the place.
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Old December 22, 2022, 02:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Paul B. View Post
"While walking in my boots hunting public land I have certainly seen (and been frustrated by) people using 4wd jeeps.pickups, and ATV's to hunt by driving around, or "There they are,lets get them!" Vroom! Or even just sitting in a pickup or camper. "

About 10 or 11 years ago I was elk hunting in area 1 in Arizona. I had a cow tag and after a bit of a difficult stalk I was behind the last bit of cover available, a scrubby little bush. I lasered the elk at 530 yards, took up a sitting position and dropped the elk on the spot with my .300 Win. mag. FWIW, for the three months prior to the hunt I was shooting that rifle at least twice a week at ranges from 100 yards to 500 meters on the silhouette range.
I got to my elk and tagged het, then went to the truck to get my wife to help me with the gutting.. As we walked back to my elk we see two guys on ATYVs headed away from where I'd shot my elk, each with half an elk on their ATVs. When I got to where my elk had been, all there was was a gut pile and my torn up elk tag. What really got me mad was there wasn't game warden or other LEO anywhere to be found. Usually, especially in elk season they're all over the place.
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Good Lord!!
When I lived in AZ it took me 14 years to draw, just a cow tag. I would have been tempted to do something stupid if that happened to me.
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Old December 23, 2022, 12:25 PM   #20
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bang flops

Part of the discussion here is that the OP doe not clarify what is meant by a "one shot kill". Does the phrase mean drop at the shot, or having to shoot more than once?

My experience seems different from some others here, most all of my deer run a short distance before expiring, and cover and terrain limit the opportunity to take another shot, even if I were so inclined. Bang-flop just has not been my experience and I pretty much expect my deer to run a bit.

Cartridge use may have some bearing on results, but more gun does not necessarily mean DRT. I've had or seen deer drop at the shot with moderate calibers like 7.62x39mm and .243 but soak up a .30/180gr from and '06 or .308 and run 50+ yds.

My target area is heart/lungs largely due to the fact that I am primarily a bow hunter for deer and that spot is burned into my subconscious as where to hold, even when gun hunting, the so called "vital-V". I'll add that I've seen deer plow along short distances, say 50 yds or so with a broken humerus or perforated shoulder blade as well, though one might think that a strike on that much bone mass would drop the animal on the spot.

The "high shoulder" aiming point is reported to drop deer more reliably, but I just do not use it. It does seem if the bullet gets near the spine in a high shoulder shot or base of the neck, the deer may well drop more at the shot more consistently. I do not advise on a head shot at all, though some guys go on about it.

The OP mentions moose, and I read that animal can be quite a bullet sponge.
A moose is of course quite a bit more animal than a whitetail, the only medium game animal with which I have any experience.

Last edited by bamaranger; December 24, 2022 at 01:56 PM. Reason: redundant
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Old December 23, 2022, 05:39 PM   #21
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Part of the discussion here is that the OP doe not clarify what is meant by a "one shot kill". Does the phrase mean drop at the shot, or having to shoot more than once?
True, and your post brings up another point. Where does one hold on an animal. That matters, and I pick different spots based on what I am shooting and how far, even what bullet.
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Old December 24, 2022, 12:27 PM   #22
Dan31
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Thank you all, great info. First shot drops them in their tracks. This was needed info since I'm not a hunter and gives me the insights I needed.

Merry Christmas Everyone!
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Old December 24, 2022, 05:11 PM   #23
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One-shot kills are very common. Anchoring them right there not so much. A lot of hunters think that just becasue they shoot the animals. it's going to fall down. As others have said, if they still have their legs, they can cover a lot of distance and go places you don't want them to, then they die there because it was a killing shot. It's one reason I try to break the shoulder when I shoot an animal. A friend of mine showed me the high shoulder shot, dropped the deer right there, When we reached him he was right where he was shot. No legs, no running. I'm lazy, and I dug too many pigs and deer out of gullies and brush holes where they ran after I shot them right behind the shoulder. Dead? You bet, but they would cover a couple hundred yards before they fell. So shoot them in the right place.

Quote:
If you want an animal down instantly you have to shut down communication to the brain. That means you have to do severe damage to the Central Nervous System.
Neck shot, spine shot, head shot all disable an animal by interrupting nerve control to the body. Breaking the shoulder keeps the animal from being able to run.
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Old December 24, 2022, 07:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
What I was referring to as illegal is hunting from a motor vehicle (and the road). Its not legal to hunt from a motor vehicle while the motor is running, or on a public road,
I'm sorry, I saw 50 BMG and totally missed the part about driving around shooting from the truck. I went back and read the comment again and saw my mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch
Neck shot, spine shot, head shot all disable an animal by interrupting nerve control to the body. Breaking the shoulder keeps the animal from being able to run.
If it's a high shoulder shot not only does it break the shoulders, it usually destroys the spinal cord as well.
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Old December 25, 2022, 01:31 PM   #25
ernie8
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It is legal to hunt from a truck in Texas on private land , and with whatever . I hunt a 186,000 acre place with a friend . You kind of need a truck . Even though must deer hunters shoot smaller groups than benchrest shooters , my friend who runs a deer processing place says most deer brought in have been butt shot , gut , shot and have multiple holes in them . A few years back I have a very good tracking dog and was always getting calls from hunters .
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