Question about annealed brass

[F. Guffey]

ReloadRon,
I've found EXACTLY the same thing with headspace adapters, radiuses edges that screw up an 'Absolute' reading.

So the Hornady tool does have a radius and if a reloader is going to use 'the datum' they must choose the datum that is not case friendly or they must learn to 'zero' the tool. And then there is the big 'OR'; or they must learn to use the tools as a comparator.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

On a more serious note Guffey:

All any of are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place.

To be serious? I ask about rules I ask about factors; I said I decided to start annealing cases but I did not get into annealing by monkey see-monkey do. I thought there were a few things that were basic like rules and factors. No one made a list or wanted to contribute.

All any of (us) are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place

and I said I made annealing tools based on rules and factors.
From the beginning I have always thought the best source of information when it come to lead and cases is the:

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

made a list or wanted to contribute.

And now after all of these years tell me everything you know about the pan, water and case. Again, there has to be rules and factors.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Forgive, I understand I am dealing with reloaders that want to reinvent reloading. I can not reinvent reloading, I can change methods and techniques.

F Guffey

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Guffey

..dealing with reloaders that want to reinvent reloading...

Neigh, nay... merely that "rules and factors" must always be based on reality (unless you're a democrat )

and those rules and factors are first: known Temperature, and then: Time.

Cheers....


.

[RC20]

Again; I am one of the few that is not impressed with your behavior, I quote a parable and it drives you into the curb or it locks you up. There are a number of members trying to contribute

Mr. Guffey

Please note you do not speak for me, so please do not do so.

JeepHammer does not have a behavior issue, he does have a problem with your posts as do I. I won't speak for others. He got understandably frustrated. Having had some more years in life I have come to realize its better to ignore some things as I do your posts.

I appreciate his posts and sharing and I would very much like him to continue to do so. Yours, not so much.

I find your post very similar to reading Finnegan's Wake. If there is real technical merit there in, it beyond my ken to sort it out. That may be because I am in intellectual cretin and my poor ape mind just can't grasp advanced concepts.

So, while you are pointing a finger, perhaps you could take time out and do a remedial communications class so you can convey much more clearly what you are saying. To quote another parable.

"The truly brilliant know how to make it simple"

[Marco Califo]

Guffey, . . .communicate clearly?

Now that is funny!

[F. Guffey]

And now after all of these years tell me everything you know about the pan, water and case. Again, there has to be rules and factors.

Annealing cycles through this forum and ever other forum; that has to be gigs and gigs of pages without two cents of difference between them. I believe it is a mistake to tell an inquiring mind there is no advantage to using a pan of water and it serves no purpose.

Neigh, nay... merely that "rules and factors" must always be based on reality (unless you're a democrat )

and those rules and factors are first: known Temperature, and then: Time.

Just my opinion but you are a little short on rules and late with the factors. It was claimed a reloader used a candle; I said the candle was too slow, no one mentioned time and then there was the claim the case was held in the hand while the candle heated the case very slowly. I said the candle would get hot enough but was too slow.

Again, I ask about the case standing in the fan of water; you do not know? Just say you do not know. I believe it is wrong to tell enquiring mines there is no place for the method and or technique in reloadoing.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

ReloadRon,
I've found EXACTLY the same thing with headspace adapters, radiuses edges that screw up an 'Absolute' reading.

So the Hornady tool does have a radius and if a reloader is going to use 'the datum' they must choose the datum that is not case friendly or they must learn to 'zero' the tool. And then there is the big 'OR'; or they must learn to use the tools as a comparator.[/QUOTE]

RC20, how long did it take them to determine the Hornady/Sinclair tool was not a head space gage and at best it was a comparator and then there is the case, the case does not have head space. And there are those reloaders that are not aware of the deck height of a shell holder and after all these years they continue to believe the shell holder and die manufacturer must match.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Jeephammer

We call cartridge casings 'Brass' because what we see most of is made of brass.
Casings have been paper (cellulose), steel, aluminum, zinc, lead, copper, bronze & all kinds of brass.

Content of alloys varies my manufacturer.

Turns out we are talking past each other. You are referring to what brass cartridge cases are made from. I assumed we were talking alloy names, regardless of whether they are used to make cartridge cases or instead are, bar, plate, sheet, or whatever in all their various tempers. That 70:30 brass is called "Cartridge Brass" is undoubtedly taken from the alloy originally being specified for cartridge cases, but it is now a more general term.

[JeepHammer]

Regardless of how things 'Used' to be done,
This is the 21st century, science marches on...

Mr. Guffey's impenetrable posts aside,
OBJECTIVE: To impart enough energy to the 'Brass' alloy the molecular structure,
To a point the 'Brass' alloy molecules space themselves & realign.

OBJECTIVE: To NOT over heat the brass to the point the alloy separates into base metal components and looses the properties we value in cartridge brass.

1. Energy Application To Excite Molecular Movement/Realignment (spacing) restoring properties benifical to said 'Brass' (non-ferrous metal alloy),

Imparting energy ONE of TWO ways...
OUTSIDE heat source (flame or heated object), that requires a substantial TIME for the THERMAL ENERGY (heat) to saturate the alloy throughly,
OR,
Magnetic Induction causing the actual molicules of the alloy to create their own 'Heat' through friction with each other.
TIME is substantially reduced with magnetic induction since ALL molicules heat at the same time & at the same rate,

The ADDED benifit of magnetic induction exciting at a molecular level isn't reaching the target temperature,
But the nearly perfect spacing of the molecular grain since every molicule spaces exactly the same when moving.

The 'Brass' alloy literally grain spaces & aligns on a molecular level.

The issues with thermal dynamics (heat inductance & thermal 'soak') is reduced to milliseconds instead of minutes since the alloy restructures itself on a molecular level.

With External heating, there are thermal soak (induction/conduction) times to consider,
A fine line between NOT overheating the outside of the case, while waiting for the inside of the case to reach critical temperature target.
There is a consideration for NOT overheating the base of the case through heat soak (induction/transfer), if you actually believe modern firearms are ONLY viable when a 'Hardened' case is used...

The argument against this would be 'Proof Testing',
Depending on the 'Proof Test', some firearms will hold back anywhere from 30% overpressure to 200% overpressure,
Either way far exceeding the capacity of the case to 'Add Strength' to the chamber...
Two examples of this are civilian 'Factory' cases coming 'Dead Soft' from the manufacturer,
And military cases coming 'Half Soft' at the rim/extractor groove only.

I see the argument of 'Over Annealing' the sides of the case as a scare tactic at best for modern firearms, and at worst an 'Old Wives Tale' passed on out of ignorance.

[JeepHammer]

This is basic science/physics, I have no idea why so many have such issues grasping the idea...

Energy imparted into useable, solid metals make that metal expand.
(Heated metal expands...)

If this basic reaction to energy introduced to metal escapes you,
Then this conversation is pointless.

The REASON heated metal expands is...
The heat is THERMAL ENERGY.
Energy imparted to metal molicules EXCITES THE MOLICULES.

This can be THERMAL energy (Heat),
This can be MECHANICAL energy (Friction),
This can be ELECTRO-MAGNETIC energy (magnetic induction).

Since FRICTION would wear away the case, it's out.
That leaves THERMAL & ELECTRO-MAGNETIC.

THERMAL can be electric Resistance, electrical current run through an electrical resistor (Example: Electrical Range Top Coil or Lead Pot Smelter)

THERMAL can be from long chain hydrocarbon 'Gas' oxydizing (flame).

OR,
You CAN directly impart energy to the metal with electro-magnetic induction,
Using magnetic 'Waves' to excite the molicules of the metal directly.
Those excited molicules produce HEAT by friction, from rubbing against each other in the magnetic 'Waves'.

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.
I 'Assumed' people knew basic energy conversion principles, since they are taught in grade school science classes.
That 'Assumption' was incorrect...

So, starting with the most BASIC rule of energy...
ENERGY can be diverted, despised, exchanged,
But NEVER 'Created', and NEVER 'Lost'.
Energy simply changes form,
From motion, to heat, to light, etc.

Chemical energy (say, coal or methane) can be oxydized (burned) to produce light & heat,
That light & heat is dispersed into the atmosphere where it changes form again,
Heat rises to produce motion in the air column, etc.

Never created, never lost.

[JeepHammer]

Now, having read the the linked information from Mr. Guffey,
I see TWO huge holes in the basic thinking of the article author.

1. Zero reference to electrical induction (magnetic) annealing.
Electrical induction annealing has been around in industry since the 1950 with the advent of electrical semi-conductors.

Electrical induction was used during WWII by using high speed 'Switching' before semi-conductors, simply by using a rotating commutator for switching.
Way to power inefficient and equipment intensive but for anything other than military use.
Semi-conductors made the process 'Solid-State', no moving parts required,
This made it cost effective & reliable for common industry.

This is NOT a 'New' technology, and it's been used in heat treatment of metals since the 60's that I know about directly.
Why it's such a foreign concept to 'Reloaders' I have no idea,
Microwave ovens have been doing the same thing with food for most of your lives...

[JeepHammer]

The second big flaw in the article referenced was the complete and utter lack of scientific OBJECTIVE testing procedures.

The article references 'Vice Grips' as a 'Testing Tool' for case 'Ductility' tool.
The author RECOMMENDS cranking down a 'Vice Grip' to squeeze the case and see if the case 'Springs' back into shape...

Now, he DOES NOT tell you how much to 'Crank Down' the vice grip!
No SPECIFIC pressure to be used,
No SPECIFIC deflection (crush), just "a few thousands",
Would that be 0.002" or 0.200"?

The ENTIRE PREMISE of that particular article was based on 'COLOR' or 'COLOR CHANGE'.

It's well established scientific fact that every single human eye sees color differently.
From color blind entirely to hyper sensitivity to color...

Every single point the author made was SUBJECTIVE to the person doing the work,
NOT OBJECTIVE to common scientific standards that can be quantified absolutely.
No ABSLOUTE amount of pressure to apply to the case,
No ABSLOUTE amount of deflection/distortion the case is supposed to 'Spring Back' from,
No color gradient standard to define 'Slightly Bluish' color you are supposed to look for,

And the most glairing omission,
ZERO hardness testing, which is the entire point of annealing!
Not one single mention of Rockwell hardness testing, or any other quantifiable system/method of testing hardness,
While reducing 'Hardness' is the entire point of the article!

[JeepHammer]

Like I've said over & over again...
I don't care 'IF' you anneal or not. That's entirely up to you.
I don't care if you use gas, lead pot, resistance/load or induction annealing if you choose to anneal.

What I did care about was the passing of disinformation, misinformation & superstition.

Now it's just not worth the time & effort involved.

[mehavey]

Good grief, folks.

- Find a temperature indicator and either use it inside the case neck for big
..diameter cases (750°); or ¼" below the shoulder on bottleneck cases (450-475°)

- Use Propane (not MAP) and aim the medium flame tip at the neck/shoulder
..junction, angled out toward the mouth.

- Spin the cases for uniform heating -- fingers in a pinch, drill recommended.

- Drop on soft dishtowel/no water

Walk away.....


.

[Metal god]

In other threads I participated in people made it seem like "I" over complicated it lol . Annealing is for sure a science but it ain't rocket science

[JeepHammer]

No, it's basic science.

[F. Guffey]

- Use Propane (not MAP) and aim the medium flame tip at the neck/shoulder
..junction, angled out toward the mouth.

Mehavey, O.K., you use propane and not MAP, if there was a science to annealing and MAP is hotter wouldn't it take less time with MAP? Going the other way and a reloader chooses to use a candle wouldn't it take longer? And then we take how the case is held into consideration, especially if the case is held in the hand.

Again, there are rules and factors, I do not know how many miles of tubing I have joined, because of one of the rules I will not join copper pipe without a glove on the left hand. I am not talking about inches from the joint I am talking about feet.

And then there are fundamentals, something like; what does a reloader need to know and what dies a reloader have to know. Based on this thread I would say the general consensus is the reloader does not have to know anything before starting. It seems all they have to do is go electric. In my opinion that is as 'bedie-eyed' (tunnel blind) as it can get.

I am the fan of the 210° panoramic view and I make no excuses for it. Again I decided to start annealing, I avoided the tunnel blind types and took information from all sources; and then I build a tool for annealing. I took a few to gun shows and did not sell a one. Not my fault they could not get their minds around something they had never seen before and did not understand.

I call that prodigious, I was asked to teach a class on prodigious; I agreed but I have to do it differently, I started by convincing the participants they were prodigious; that class had to be shut down before it got started because prodigious is an ugly thing and no one believes they have a fault.

The old professor running the program said he had never enjoyed himself more; right up to the point but before that mob did me harm.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

Mchavey,
I agree with not using mapp gas,
I wound up with overheat & alloy component seperation at point of contact before the heat effect zone reached target temperature, including inside the case shoulder area.

While brass alloy is considered an excellent conductor of heat,
The conduction wasn't fast enough to avoid overheating the case OUTSIDE at the point of contact.

I'm sure a fanned tip would have helped the issue,
It was just more simple to switch back to propane than to drill out/deform a torch tip that was working with propane.

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.

[F. Guffey]

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.

And this threads reminds me of Amos and Andy, they had a problem getting the 'WHOA' in front of the 'BANG!'.

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!

And I believe you are making this stuff as you go.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

and I asked if one has more heat? wouldn't the time be reduced. And then there are different diameter orifices when there is a fixed flow without an adjustment. And then there are adjustments.

It is like one of those 'liken-to' things. There was this black smith hammering out horse shoes while a reloader was watching. The smith threw a hot horse shoe into the sand to allow for cooling and the reloader walked over and picked it up then immediately dropped it. The smith said to the reloader; "hot wasn't it?" and the reloader said to the smith after removing his smoking fingers from his mouth; "naw, it wasn't hot it just didn't take me long to look at it".

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

That wasn't helpful...

[Reloadron]

With the holidays behind us I want to experiment a little with induction heating. Likely not till around mid February as we have travel plans late Jan. and early Feb. I remember the other thread where it was tossed around. It will take some experimenting but may be worth screwing around with. More a curiosity thing than much else and I am not about to buy one of the commercial flavors available just to anneal brass.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.

RIg? Again, I said there were simple rules and factors; I applied the simple rules and factors and made a tool that can be used to anneal cases. There was/is no way I can miss. Again, I form cases, when forming cases annealing (my opinion) is required. The case must be annealed before forming (my opinion). When annealing for forming the case must be annealed down to the position of the new shoulder. And then there are new cases; annealing may not be required.

I would like to say the tool is fool proof but that would be most difficult to prove because fools do not read and they have about the same difficult when listening.

The tool is fool proof for a reloader that has basic skills and understand the minimum necessary information for annealing like rules and factors.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

MAYBE IF YOU CLEARLY STATED THOSE RULES & FACTORS SO PEOPLE COULD DECIDE IF THEY WERE NEEDED OR ACCURATE...

Anyway, working on 3rd generation of production electro-magnetic annealer, getting some unexpected help from an electrical engineer (due to these posts) that has cleared things up for me.
Since he worked for both ATK/Federal & Winchester on induction annealing units, and he speaks plain English, he's already helped me with a couple issues...

Seems I have Mr. Guffy's 'Spring Back' issue already in the can and didn't even know it.
The stretch/compression dyno I was using plots force AND MOVEMENT at the same time.
Didn't open the spread sheet far enough to look at RETURN movement.
Turns out you CAN anneal once fired NATO brass for not only Rockwell tester hardness, but the amount of force applied, compression movement, and since the machine was designed to test rebound, it also charts the rebound ('Spring Back') and beginning/end cycle contact in ABSLOUTE numbers!

Force required to move the case, distance case/ram moves, and where the case returns to when pressure released, but also total difference in case size because the unit uses electrical current to tell when contact is made and broken.

Turns out you can not only reproduce Rockwell specification, but you can restore case 'Spring Back' to within 1/4 gram of factory unfired cases with the correct annealing...

If Mr. Guffey hadn't said it couldn't be done and posted that otherwise useless article on vice grip & plumbers torch annealing I wouldn't have thought to ask the testing operator about checking for rebound.
Turns out it was data logged the entire time, it just wasn't what I was looking at!
I'd say 0.0005" or less is a good place to start since that's where brand new Winchester brass rebounds back to...