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Old January 27, 2018, 04:24 PM   #26
Koda94
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Originally Posted by Kvon2 View Post
I promise I am not trying to spark a caliber war, I know its been done.

It seems 10mm is the caliber of shot show this year and people are really excited about it. Having no experience with 10mm, I have to admit, I'm confused.

The .40sw seems to be on a decline in favor of the 9mm for reasons of cost, easier recoil, faster follow up shots, capacity, etc...

So people don't like the .40sw because of the reasons I listed above, yet 10mm is now the craze?

For those with 10mm experience, how does the recoil compare to that of a 40sw? If it is more of a push and less of a snap(how I would compare a 45 to a 40) then I guess I understand some of the praise.

Thoughts?
because people are finally seeing the 10mm for what it was originally intended for, a more powerful semi-auto handgun. The 40 does not compare to the 10, and was invented as a solution looking for a problem. When people think about the 10mm they need to think out of the self defense only box, its versatility is where it excels.
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Old January 27, 2018, 04:47 PM   #27
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Peple dump too much on the 40. It does what its designed to do which is provide 45acp energy in a 9mm frame sized pistol. So 15rds vs 17rds in a full sized pistol (or 12 vs 13 in my hk usp compact)....

Now I have 3 10mm pistols, a gen2 glock 20 and a pair of eaa witnesses. Good pistols but definitely not cheap to fire. I haven't handled a glock 40 but I think that would be my vote as a longer slide with more mass should be just the ticket for properly handling those hot rounds. Double recoil springs also are good things for 10mm (I should put those in my witnesses as they are the older ones).
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Old January 27, 2018, 05:31 PM   #28
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10mm PCCs are a part of the resurgence, but many of the companies trying to make them don't get it. The CMMG, or a DI gun is the answer, not blowback.
I agree. A lot of shooters and "experts" don't get it either. I don't know if DI is the only answer, but blowback certainly isn't.
Quote:
Peple dump too much on the 40. It does what its designed to do which is provide 45acp energy in a 9mm frame sized pistol.
There's nothing wrong with the 40S&W, but let's be honest about what made it so popular.

Higher energy in a 9mm sized package was not the real reason for the 40S&W's popularity. If that were the case, the .41Action Express would have filled that slot before the .40S&W was ever invented. It was developed to do exactly what the .40S&W did.

The reason the .40S&W succeeded where the .41AE had previously failed was all about the FBI and U.S. LE.
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Old January 27, 2018, 06:40 PM   #29
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JohnKSa, the CMMG is a delayed rotating bolt. We are seeing folks with all kinds of issues with power levels (soft 9mm loads) that are half that of the 10mm.
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Old January 27, 2018, 07:06 PM   #30
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More shooters are moving away from full size magnum revolvers and toward semi-auto pistols. The 10mm offers magnum revolver power in a 10-15 shot semi-auto pistol of reasonable size, weight and cost.

I can't say why everyone else is buying them, but this is why I bought a G20 years ago and added a G29 more recently. I spend a fair amount of time hiking and camping in areas where bear are common and bear-human interactions are becoming more and more common.

I could choose to carry a 357 or 44 magnum revolver, but my G29 is a full pound lighter and 2" shorter than my magnum revolvers with 4" barrels. And it holds 11 or 16 rounds depending on the magazine I have in it.

Loaded with 200 Gr DoubleTap ammo @ 1300 fps it will slightly beat anything from a 4" 357 mag and isn't that far behind 44 mag from a 4" barrel. Published ballistics for the magnum revolvers are from 8" barrels and with those barrels they are in another class. But most people don't carry around 8" barreled revolvers so the real world numbers are closer than a lot realize.

With lighter bullet weights and more moderate loadings 10mm is versatile enough to be every bit as effective as a personal defense weapon vs human threats. Even when I'm in bear country I still feel the bigger threat is from 2 legged predators and I'd rather have 15-16 rounds from a semi-auto.

If I'm not in bear country, even in the woods I'd just as soon carry one of my 9mm pistols. But the 10 is so versatile.
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Old January 27, 2018, 07:32 PM   #31
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I played the 10mm game once, that's all I need !!!!
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Old January 27, 2018, 08:37 PM   #32
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Just a FWIW, I have a good friend who is a field agent for the BATF. His issue side arm is a Glock 22 with a 27 back up.
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Old January 27, 2018, 09:02 PM   #33
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Hey jmr40

You're fortunate to live in a state that I presume still allows AR's to be owned and carried. If just out meandering in the woods enjoying nature, the AR I can't own in the state I'm in-guess where that is? need a hint? the land of the fruits and nuts! You can bet I would have the AR slung over my shoulder with a couple 30 rnd. clips on my belt. Two or four footed vermin-watch out!

Be aware and always vigilant about whom you elect for office or you will soon be in an environment that is hell bent on doing away with your 2A rights!

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Old January 27, 2018, 09:33 PM   #34
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+1

I like jmr40's post. In my personal ramblings when I was covering a lot of ground on foot, I wanted a powerful handgun, I graduated from a
4" .357 revolver, to a 6" M29, which was a lot more gun, but I found cumbersome to carry. Next came a 4" Mtn Gun in .44, which carried easier. But then I bought a G20, and basically have retired my magnum revolvers. More compact, lighter, it offers more rounds in hand, with mag revolver power.
So gimpy these days I don't hoof it like I used to, but the G20 is a great serious woods pistol.

I think too ballistics sell, and though the numbers are not vast, the 10mm is on paper the most powerful conventional, reasonably sized autopistol, and sells to many folks for just that reason.
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Old January 28, 2018, 12:29 AM   #35
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It gives you a revolver powered caliber in a auto pistol. You get the best of
both worlds, power, compact (full) pistol size, and the benefit of magazines for
reloads.
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Old January 28, 2018, 03:51 AM   #36
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More MFR's are making 10mm pistols now than ever before...and selling the
heck out of 'em while they're at it
Used to be, in the 90's, you had 4 choices...Bren, Star, S&W, and Colt.
Now there's over 20, including SIG!

I love 10mm because I can walk into the woods with JUST it, and leave with either
a deer or a hog. Both if I do my part in good shooting and call a friend with a truck
Also makes for mighty good defense against a Florida Black Bear.

G20SF works mighty well with a 9" Lone Wolf Barrel and a supressor.
Capable of holding 17+1 if you use the mag extenders. They work just fine

Currently searching for the right deal on a Star Megastar in 10mm...
have the .45 version, which can utilize either .45acp or .45-Super,
and it's a Bowling Pin murderer with Super's

It's definitely a Pistoleer's round, it ain't for beginners, and it helps to have
pretty strong hands if one plants on shooting more than a box of 50 at the range
Recoil is managable in a Glock or Megastar, can head straight towards painful with a Delta Elite.
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Old January 28, 2018, 07:33 AM   #37
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Perhaps “comeback” isn't the right word. It never really went away even though most of the guns were discontinued. Nor was it ever especially popular. It's not clear if the near disappearance of the guns was due to lack of sales or warranty costs. Many people found the ammo too expensive, and uncomfortable to shoot with full power loads. Plus, the guns just didn't hold up well when using full power ammo (except for the Glock), and I suspect warranty costs were high. I wouldn't be surprised if it all happens again.

There is nothing wrong with the cartridge. But it isn't a low recoil cartridge like the 9mm that most anybody can shoot with a little practice. And it's pressure/power is more than what most guns designed around the 9mm Luger or 45 Automatic can successfully harness.

I pick up brass at a local outdoor range. Of the many thousands of empty brass I've picked up, I can count on one hand the 10mm empties I've accumulated. That provides a pretty good reflection of the 10mm. Not many shoot it, and those that do pick up their brass and reload it due to ammo cost. It may just be one of the many good cartridges that never becomes popular.
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Old January 28, 2018, 09:37 AM   #38
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Quote:
In my personal ramblings when I was covering a lot of ground on foot, I wanted a powerful handgun, I graduated from a 4" .357 revolver, to a 6" M29, which was a lot more gun, but I found cumbersome to carry. Next came a 4" Mtn Gun in .44, which carried easier. But then I bought a G20, and basically have retired my magnum revolvers. More compact, lighter, it offers more rounds in hand, with mag revolver power.
Yep there's a lot of truth in that statement...weight on the belt is a big item and in reality, about as important to the average guy toting a handgun as is cartridge effectiveness. With modern, boutique bullets at a buck a piece, you can almost have your cake and eat it too....penetration, expansion, good capacity all in a gun that's controllable and concealable!

My gripe (and I don't own one) is that the 10mm ammunition is so expensive that you'd better be a home caster and handloader to feed it enough to gain proficiency...much like the .41 magnum (which I do own...several in fact). Pick you poison, but you'd better hit the lottery if you intend to shoot a 10mm much.

One way around the above dilemma is to buy a .40 S&W bbl. from Storm Lake and shoot the .40 for proficiency...cheaper by far...and save the 10 for serious social purposes.

JMHO, Rod
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Old January 28, 2018, 09:43 AM   #39
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It’s not crazy expensive right now, .45 was going for more than .33/rnd just a few years back.
https://www.luckygunner.com/10mm-aut...ot-1000-rounds
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Old January 28, 2018, 12:14 PM   #40
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3 primary reasons

1- relatively inexpensive, durable platform = Glock20/29

2- Mike McNette = Started DoubleTap - Prior to doing so, was publishing loads that screamed in the 10mm from his stock G20, 29 and Contender barrel when all other manufacturers were producing loads equal to the 40SW.

3- manufacturers are finally producing rounds exploiting its potential, thanks to Mike opening the door.

But, you have to understand why it died, before understanding how it came back.

When it was first introduced you [basically] had 1 bullet manufacturer, Norma.
The Bren Ten [original platform] was plagued with production and supply problems. Early adaptations of the pistol from SW, Colt, etc were getting battered in FBI tests and the agents had a difficult time handling the recoil in a 1911 style pistol.

Because of it's early issues of battering guns, few manufacturers produced the round and reloading manuals had the 10mm loaded with velocities just over 40SW loads. My 3rd Edition Sierra manual list 1100fps as max for the 10 shot in a Delta Elite.

When the Glock 20 was introduced, it was the perfect platform, as it withstood the pressures. When Mike started to experiment with various powders, [and didn't kill himself, blow up guns, worry about "smiles" and ended up starting a company], others followed suit. Now you have a few companies putting out screaming loads.

As has been mentioned, there will always be a segment of the population that desire power - even if only "potential" power. The 10 was suppose to answer the question, "which was better, the 9 or 45?" The full power 10, with a properly designed bullet will due that. NOT because it's significantly more powerful than a +p 180 or 200 from a 45, but because it also offers higher capacity.
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Old January 28, 2018, 01:55 PM   #41
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Attempting to compare 45 acp vs 10mm recoil objectively ...
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

2.5# firearm weight for 1911
Actual power charge for 10mm handloads, 45 acp estimated from AA manual

10mm Handload 180 Gold Dot @ 1,152 fps / 531# KE - recoil energy 8.1 - PF 207
10mm Handload 180 Nosler @ 1,228 fps / 603# KE - recoil energy 9.2 - PF 221
10mm Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE - recoil energy 9.4 - PF 210

45 acp Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE - recoil energy 7.8 - PF 205
45 acp Winchester 230 Ranger T @ 915 fps / 428# KE - recoil energy 8.2 - PF 210
45 acp Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE - recoil energy 9.0 - PF 214

My moderate 180 gr. Gold Dot 10mm load doesn't produce any more recoil than 45 acp Ranger T but generates about 20% more KE

Increasing the power (powder) a bit, the Nosler 180 recoil is comparable to 45 acp +P but 10mm delivers more KE.

Extra round capacity, more KE, and subjectively not much difference in recoil.
I'm not after nuclear loads, the loads I made suit me; however, next time I load the 180 Gold Dot it will be same power (powder) as the 180 Nosler.
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Old January 29, 2018, 12:16 AM   #42
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There's also just a whole lot of fun firing semi-autos with "Magnum" rounds...
kind of like going from an M16A1 to an M60E3...just puts a grin on yer mug
10mm, .45-Super, & .50AE are just a BLAST!!! Literally even

Having a wide variety of pistols in the safe means options...iron sights are iron sights,
if you do the same thing every time with every shot, the bullet will land where you
aimed it, no matter which pistol you pick up, as long as the sights are set correctly.

How each individual handles recoil varies as well...a big gorilla like me will be
somewhat less affected by recoil, say than by my 5'9 Wife. She'll take a 9mm
and party on, but a 10mm or .44Mag ain't her cup O' tea at all.

So it's no surprise when one sees 10mm's that have hardly been fired for the
last 30 years in a pawn shop/gun shop...beautiful condition Colt Delta Elites and
S&W 10xx series pistols show up all the time...barely look touched! Made for
great deals for some of us, until the Internet took off
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Old January 29, 2018, 09:56 AM   #43
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It Was Never Gone ...

10mm's "Comeback"...

After having been officially declared a 'Dead Round" only about 56 times since the early '90s, .... you'd think folks would wake up and smell the 10mm coffee.

Truthfully, the cartridge has been resurgent since at least the early 2000s, after a long, sad, and frankly unnecessary, "watering-down" period through the 1990s.

That resurgence more or less began with (1) the return of access to full-throttle 10mm ammo from certain smaller, so-called 'boutique' ammo companies whose owners appreciated the cartridge loaded to its original specs (anyone remember a now-defunct company called Texas Ammo, which was pre-DT/BB/UW?), and (2) the literal explosion of the internet (primarily through the mechanism of online gunboards) as an easily-accessed means for the shooting community to exchange and vet information about the 10mm cartridge and the guns that were then chambered for it.

One after another, the old myths - started by gun-rag writers back in the '80s - got exposed as such and exploded on the gunboards as folks who bought a Glock or a Delta Elite, or a pre-owned S&W 10XX-series or 610 wheelie, could find out for themselves what the 10mm AUTO was capable of, and then get online and share that information.

Today we have more gunmakers chambering more handguns in 10mm than ever before. Norma first introduced the round in 1983, and it looks like the cartridge will only gain in popularity as the .40's continues to fade.

A shooter can own a 9mm pistol, and then switch right to his 10mm gun from which to shoot either the hot, full-power loads or - with the swap of a barrel in his Glock (or 10mm 1911) - he can shoot factory .40 ammo.

Or, if he reloads, he can simply 'download' his handloads to milder ".40-ish" ballistics for practice sessions.

So, tell me again, ... what's not to like about the 10mm AUTO?
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Old January 29, 2018, 10:07 AM   #44
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Can anyone in the retail world speak to actual sales figures for 10mm pistols? I completely agree that more manufacturers are making 10mm than at least I can remember in 10 years or so. But I’m curious how well that translates into pistols sold. Currently I see manufacturers doing just about anything to capture any sales out there as, best as I can tell, the overall market is relatively weak. But I wonder how many of these are sold? My other question is how many of these pistols will be retained, as in will we see a bunch of 10mm pistols on used shelves in stores as novices run out to buy what their favorite YouTube star likes only to find that off the shelf ammo is relatively expensive and the recoil is more than they anticipated. The long time 10mm fans are an exception to this.


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Old January 29, 2018, 11:07 PM   #45
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10MM is a luxury round.
After almost a decade of stagnant economic growth and wages things are headed in the right direction again.
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Old January 30, 2018, 08:53 AM   #46
agtman
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Quote:
10MM is a luxury round. After almost a decade of stagnant economic growth and wages things are headed in the right direction again.
You mean for the economy, ... or for the 10mm?

'Cause you don't have to be in a rich guy's tax bracket to get into the 10mm.

Last edited by agtman; January 30, 2018 at 09:15 AM.
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Old January 30, 2018, 11:33 AM   #47
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If you don't reload, and the vast majority of shooters do not, it is a whole lot more expensive than 9mm.
Most companies don't make products for the small percentage of shooters who reload.
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Old January 31, 2018, 12:07 PM   #48
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Down here many use the 10mm with stout loads to hunt with . We're overrun with hogs & the deer for the most part are small . Thick piney woods & river bottoms , short range shots on moving targets . I've always used a RBH in 41mag & picked up a Henry lever gun also 41mag . Also shot more than my share with 357mag & 38-44 . Perhaps they're worried about being outflanked by viscous swine in thick cover . If we all liked the same things we'd still be driving Model T's in black.........
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Old January 31, 2018, 01:33 PM   #49
mr bolo
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the 10mm semi auto handgun would be a excellent choice for a carry gun in Bear Country

but I would prefer a rifle and a handgun as my back up, something thats with me at all times.

has anyone ever fired full power loads from a semi auto 10mm handgun without hearing protection? I bet it would be extra loud / ear piercing? thats another reason some people dont carry the 10mm , it would be ear deafening if you ever had to use it without ear protection.
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Old January 31, 2018, 01:59 PM   #50
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When hiking with my children I used to carry a Ruger SP101 in .357 with heavy loads in the off-chance we annoyed a bear.

The reality is I am more concerned about a pack of coyotes and the 5 shot revolver was just not giving me warm tingly feelings.

11 shots in a G29 gives me roughly the same size and weight firearm with twice the capacity and a far quicker reload and the same overall "power spectrum" that the .357 did (I don't buy into the argument the 10MM is equal to the .41 Magnum).
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