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Old January 8, 2018, 12:19 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan
...Most everything made today is good enough that the other side of the equation, the shooter, can learn to be quite
I agree with that.

I've shot high grade 1911s for much of my shooting life. I've competed with them and taken classes with them. They all had excellent triggers.

I've also learned to shoot a number of other guns pretty much as well, including my Glock 19 with the stock trigger. It took time and effort, but it was doable.
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Old January 10, 2018, 06:13 PM   #27
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If an 10 lbs double action trigger pull on a revolver is too much, than you need to spend some time dry firing the gun.
And once you do, you'll be able to shoot pretty much anything you pick up, and without complaining, or even thinking about the triggers too.

Quote:
I've also learned to shoot a number of other guns pretty much as well, including my Glock 19 with the stock trigger. It took time and effort, but it was doable.
This is generally the case, but it seems most people want to take the shortcuts, instead of putting the time and effort in with things that really have nothing wrong with them. And the time and effort are really not a big deal or big thing, but the dividends will amaze you.

If you want to be a better shot, overall, with ANYTHING you pick up, learn to shoot a DA revolver, DAO. I will guarantee you, what you gain in the long run, is worth more than the best aftermarket trigger you can buy.

It really doesnt take much effort or time (mostly you need to build and maintain the muscle tone you dont have, because you insist on lighter and lighter triggers and your muscles and skills, are literally atrophying), but once you do, youll notice youre really not even paying attention to, or worrying the trigger at all.

Focus on the sights and/or the target, and stroke or press the trigger, and the rounds will go where the sights are when the shot breaks.
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Old January 10, 2018, 06:49 PM   #28
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I like AK103K's use of the word "atrophying."

It is spot on regarding this and several other
discussions regarding triggers on several forums.
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Old January 10, 2018, 07:23 PM   #29
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When your going out to buy a hand gun . You probably saw it in a magazine ,read articals , then went to you local gun shop to handle it .See how it feels in your hands , ask to dry fire it . At that point as soon as you dry fire , you'll feel a gritty trigger ,spongey , hard or crisp . If it's your first buy try different guns . You shouldn't have to reach for the trigger .
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Old January 10, 2018, 09:26 PM   #30
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It depends.
6-8 lbs on a semi-50BMG is reasonable.
8 ounces on an ultra-precision ELR bench rest gun is reasonable.
A 5 lb trigger on a semi handgun is reasonable, where many would argue a 12 lb trigger on the same gun (aka NYPD) is a disaster waiting to happen.

Not too light you’re bouncing a semi trigger to full auto but also not so heavy to pull that you can’t hit a target reliably.
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Old January 10, 2018, 10:03 PM   #31
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I like shooting. Learning a new trigger is fun because I am shooting.

I have only modified a few triggers on my stock guns and left the largest majority as they were when I bought them.

Learning new triggers is a fun challenge to me. I sometimes put in a lot of time shooting when learning a trigger.

So far, I haven't found a trigger I couldn't learn.

I have lots of things with triggers on them.
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Old January 10, 2018, 10:41 PM   #32
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I understand that trigger pull is a part of accuracy.
Trigger CONTROL is a central part of accuracy. Past precision target shooting has made me much more tolerant of any poly-pistol trigger as I know that no amount of money will ever make it a target trigger so you just adapt to it. To me it is a waste of money just to make a plastic pistol trigger a little less bad. Plus you are shooting shorter distances at bigger targets so the tolerance is much greater. I've shot free pistol for example where the center ring is about 1"and you are shooting about 54 yards. The demands of the sport make you appreciate good sights and electronic or top end mechanical triggers. What this shooting does do is train your brain so that it identifies what a good shot looks like and your finger just activates the trigger without disturbing the sights and you don't really think about it. YMMV
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Old January 11, 2018, 12:51 AM   #33
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Defining terms . . . help?

Okay, we have two phrases here "trigger pull" and "trigger control."

I take it that "trigger pull" has to do with the physical/mechanical qualities of the trigger mechanism on any given gun. Some have a long pull, some short, some have a lot of play, some have a quick reset etc.

"Trigger control" has to do with what a shooter's finger does as he/she pulls the trigger. Does it pull the gun down or to the left or to the right etc.

Right?

So much to learn.

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Old January 11, 2018, 01:00 AM   #34
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If you want to be a better shot, overall, with ANYTHING you pick up, learn to shoot a DA revolver, DAO.
I started doing a lot of dryfire practice some years back and, along with the practice, I did a lot of experimentation.

I found that my technique was the primary limiting factor in keeping the gun steady during the trigger pull, not the trigger weight. I discovered this while using a gun with a decocker/safety which "disconnects" the trigger, allowing it to move through the full range of motion but with virtually no pull weight.

Although the DA pull on the gun was very stiff and I was having trouble holding the gun still while pulling the trigger, I assumed that it would be simple to hold the gun still while the trigger was disconnected and offered practically no resistance at all.

Instead, I found that I was moving the gun almost as much with the disconnected trigger (on pull AND release) as I was when operating the trigger in DA mode with the very stiff pull. In other words, it was NOT the pull weight that was causing me troubles.

It took me awhile, but I was able to correct the problems with my technique and it has improved my shooting ability considerably.
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Old January 11, 2018, 01:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof Young
....I take it that "trigger pull" has to do with the physical/mechanical qualities of the trigger mechanism on any given gun. Some have a long pull, some short, some have a lot of play, some have a quick reset etc.

"Trigger control" has to do with what a shooter's finger does as he/she pulls the trigger. Does it pull the gun down or to the left or to the right etc.

Right?...
I've posted this before, but it might be helpful to have another look at it:

The basic principles I discuss below apply to both handguns and rifles.
  1. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

  2. One wants to place his finger on the trigger in a manner that facilitates that. Usually, the best place for the finger to contact the trigger will be the middle of the portion of the finger between the first knuckle and the fingertip, and that part of the finger should be perpendicular to the direction in which the trigger moves.

    1. With some triggers, e. g., heavy double action triggers with a long travel, that placement might not provide enough leverage to work the trigger smoothly. In such cases, the trigger may be placed at the first joint.

    2. In either case, the trigger finger needs to be curved away from the gun sufficiently to allow it to press the trigger straight back without the trigger finger binding or applying lateral pressure to the gun. If one has to reach too far to get his finger properly on the trigger (or turn the gun to the point that the axis of the barrel is significantly misaligned with the forearm), the gun is too big. (For example, I have a short trigger reach and can't properly shoot some handguns, like N frame Smith & Wesson revolvers double action.)

  3. By keeping focus on the front sight (or reticle) and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.

  4. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. And of course, properly using some form of rest will also help minimize wobble.

  5. In our teaching we avoid using the words "squeeze" or "pull" to describe the actuation of the trigger. We prefer to refer to "pressing" the trigger. The word "press" seems to better describe the process of smoothly pressing the trigger straight back, with only the trigger finger moving, to a surprise break.

  6. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.

    1. Again, remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

    2. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.

  7. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.

    1. As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.

    2. Here's an interesting video in which Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break. While he is demonstrating with a handgun, the same principles apply with a rifle.

  8. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.

    1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

      1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

      2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

      3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

      4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

    2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

    3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

    4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

    5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.
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Old January 11, 2018, 12:41 PM   #36
T. O'Heir
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Crisp and clean means smooth to the firing point with a well defined point where the sear lets go. Smooth is far more important than pull weight though.
Minimum take-up isn't desirable on any handgun except pure target pistols and maybe varmint/target rifles. Moreso if the trigger is light(3 or 4 pounds). Too easy to inadvertently set the thing off.
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Old January 11, 2018, 01:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSA
A good trigger is one that lets a shooter using proper technique fire the gun without pulling it off target in the process.
Exactly so. Everything beyond that is a detail.

Once a fellow had me shoot his Glock with what he called a "New York" trigger. It was heavy but very smooth with no over travel I could discern. My beater Sig 239 has a soft enough spring that I used to shoot it as accurately in double action as single action even though that double action is quite long.

Both strike me as good triggers despite different characters.

It's reasonable to prefer specific characteristics in a trigger, like rifle with a light single stage trigger with little pretravel - a preference I can't grok, but those are mostly mere preferences.
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Old January 11, 2018, 05:33 PM   #38
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Frank has a lot of good details....let me expand a bit on trigger control.

To me it is about stroke, position and speed/force....break these down and work on them.

Position - first, learn where to put your finger on the trigger. For light triggers, I put the center of my finger print in the center of the trigger. For heavier triggers, I choke up a bit and slide it in almost to the first knuckle. Up and down plays a role too. Try different things and find the sweet spot where grip, quality of pull and how the sights move as you pull are all at a best balance point.

Stroke - this is about pulling through the trigger in such a way that the trigger breaks every time with perfectly aligned sights. Try pushing in and pulling out a bit. Try pushing up and down....somewhere you will have a natural stroke line.....learn it....1000's of dry fire cycles. Imagine a doctor practicing brain surgery....each one counts! Focus! Try holding the trigger at full travel and natural release....one will feel better...work at it...I like a conscious reset, but I think better shooters slap and release it a bit more.

I have 2 strokes. A pull to the break point and break it accuracy stroke. I also, pull straight through with a speed stroke. The speed stroke is way harder to master as it has changing forces and speeds to keep driving sights on target. That is why accurate speed shooting is such a skill.

Speed/force - now, how to make this pull feel right. The faster you pull and more consistently you pull, the less trigger quality and pull weight matter. They still matter, but less. Slow pulls expose you to lots of static friction and you feel surface roughness. A quick confident pull eliminates a lot of static friction, slack take up feeling. A slow erratic pull makes even a good trigger feel like crap.


Breath control and other conscious variables all need mastered. Pull included. Your conscious mind can only handle situation assessment and reaction.
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Old January 11, 2018, 08:11 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Frank has a lot of good details....let me expand a bit on trigger control.

To me it is about stroke, position and speed/force....break these down and work on them.

Position - first, learn where to put your finger on the trigger. For light triggers, I put the center of my finger print in the center of the trigger. For heavier triggers, I choke up a bit and slide it in almost to the first knuckle. Up and down plays a role too. Try different things and find the sweet spot where grip, quality of pull and how the sights move as you pull are all at a best balance point.

Stroke - this is about pulling through the trigger in such a way that the trigger breaks every time with perfectly aligned sights. Try pushing in and pulling out a bit. Try pushing up and down....somewhere you will have a natural stroke line.....learn it....1000's of dry fire cycles. Imagine a doctor practicing brain surgery....each one counts! Focus! Try holding the trigger at full travel and natural release....one will feel better...work at it...I like a conscious reset, but I think better shooters slap and release it a bit more.

I have 2 strokes. A pull to the break point and break it accuracy stroke. I also, pull straight through with a speed stroke. The speed stroke is way harder to master as it has changing forces and speeds to keep driving sights on target. That is why accurate speed shooting is such a skill.

Speed/force - now, how to make this pull feel right. The faster you pull and more consistently you pull, the less trigger quality and pull weight matter. They still matter, but less. Slow pulls expose you to lots of static friction and you feel surface roughness. A quick confident pull eliminates a lot of static friction, slack take up feeling. A slow erratic pull makes even a good trigger feel like crap.

Breath control and other conscious variables all need mastered. Pull included. Your conscious mind can only handle situation assessment and reaction.
So the Speed/Force answers my question in another thread as, why I'm shooing better with speed shooting.
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Old January 11, 2018, 11:54 PM   #40
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My revolvers were all worked by Randy Lee from Apex Tactical. They no longer work on revolvers unfortunately but sell the parts needed to get a super trigger pull.

I consider a double action pull of 4 1/2 pounds to be excellent. Under 7 pounds is possible with standard internals but you need to replace the hammer and trigger and do a lot of polishing to get sub 5 pounds.
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Old January 13, 2018, 06:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86 View Post
Oftentimes I wonder if the popularity of the cheap plastic wundernines is not based on the fact that the largest part of the buyers of these things don't know any different ..... this thread is confirming that theory....
Possibly because some of us own all-metal wundernines like the Star 30 MI
that have great triggers from the factory

Although one could say that some of that was luck, as it truly depended on
who built the pistol as to how good the particular trigger was
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Old January 14, 2018, 09:31 AM   #42
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Trigger pull

Not trigger pull but trigger control, if you can control the trigger the pull doesn’t matter. Then all the minutia isn’t noticeable.

The trigger is just a lever that needs to be pulled not something that is worshipped.


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Old January 14, 2018, 10:17 AM   #43
AK103K
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Quote:
Not trigger pull but trigger control, if you can control the trigger the pull doesn’t matter. Then all the minutia isn’t noticeable.

The trigger is just a lever that needs to be pulled not something that is worshipped.
Thats probably the best Ive ever seen it put into writing.
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Old January 14, 2018, 11:20 AM   #44
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Hmmm

I am not a 1911 guy.

I do tend to contemplate how much of the popularity of the 1911 design is due to the SA trigger.

Newbies tend to gravitate to the 1911 for this reason.
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Old January 14, 2018, 12:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricklin View Post
I am not a 1911 guy.

I do tend to contemplate how much of the popularity of the 1911 design is due to the SA trigger.

Newbies tend to gravitate to the 1911 for this reason.
Newby here.

No 1911 interests me. Sorry
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Old January 14, 2018, 03:02 PM   #46
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A reason factory double action revolver triggers are at abut 12 pounds average is because when you've got that "all shook up" feeling during a possible confrontation, you won't notice that "heavy" trigger.

Your fine motor skills won't be there to handle a much lighter trigger.

Repeat, your fine motor skills won't be there when you are "all shook up."

Real world reasons exist for the NY Glock trigger, the DA only autos and the DA only revolvers for police who are more likely to face danger in their careers than the average citizen.
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Old January 14, 2018, 03:24 PM   #47
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While it is true that autopistol triggers are intentionally made heavier for certain police departments due to concerns about liability, the primary reason that DA revolver triggers tend to be heavy has more to do with the fact that it is difficult to make them otherwise given the work that a DA trigger must perform.
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Old January 14, 2018, 05:11 PM   #48
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For whatever its worth, I like my trigger to break at two pounds.

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Old January 15, 2018, 10:25 AM   #49
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With all the foregoing, I'll make these observations:

Free Pistol shooters adjust their triggers for the minimum weight permitted. They are capable of much finer shooting than I was ever capable of, even on my best day. There have even been attempts to make electronic trigger releases.

I'm no slouch with the handgun. I once considered becoming an exhibition shot and have cut playing cards edgewise, cut thread in two, and cut the string on tethered helium filled balloons and popped the balloon with the second shot. I recently bought a Colt New Frontier with a bad trigger. I out shot everyone else on the range with that gun, but still was not as good as I can do. I always do better with a gun that has a decent trigger.

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Old January 15, 2018, 04:01 PM   #50
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Every shooter probably needs one of these...
https://www.opentip.com/search.php?c...CABEgL6w_D_BwE


I'll say it, lots of us aren't as fit as we should be, me included.
Truly do miss the Army, for if nothing else, PT did keep us in shape.

One who works their muscles on a regular basis is going to perceive trigger pull
far differently than a couch potato will. # number really doesn't matter much.
Smooth operation in the trigger assembly makes much more of a difference.

It is a total package thing..crisp trigger that breaks like a glass rod, pulled by
a healthy individual that does exercise on a regular basis...is going to beat
a Tater every time. Unless the Tater is Bob Munden...yet even he worked out his
hands on a daily basis with speed drills...so that's doing the needed exercise.

Can I get an Amen for us getting off our butts and getting some exercise??
Guarantee we'll all feel better in six weeks!
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