Anyone else becoming enamored with .38 Super

[Brutus]

Always wanted one in particular a Colt commander but since my preferred self defense arm is a .45ACP I opted for a full size Dan Wesson target model.
What a tack driver. Loaded it up with 115gr Hornady HAP bullets on top of 5.2gr of titegroup. Suddenly 9mm are definitely punybellums. .357 Sig has a bit more umph but you have to deal with a bottleneck case when reloading.

[5whiskey]

I have been intrigued by 38 super for a while. What I really want, however, is a 9x23 Winchester. There, you truly do have mid .357 magnum loads in a semi-auto platform. I honestly believe if a 1911 manufacturer could offer an affordable model (Ruger SR1911 or so level) that offered a double-stack mag capable of holding 15 rounds in this caliber, along with factory ammo support, and aggressive marketing... that my friends would sell IMO.

And yes, I realize it wouldn't be a true mil-spec 1911. But the grip width could be made close I think.

[TXAZ]

Nope.

[44caliberkid]

Had a 38 Super Commander a long time ago. It managed to keep all the shots somewhere on the target at 25 yards. Every case was split down the side, so no reloading. Sold/ Traded it. But what intrigues me is a Coonan 357 Magnum. I fired 2 magazines through one at Ashman's big fall gun event and it was marvelous.

[KyJim]

I considered a .38 Super because the cartridge is inherently more reliable in a 1911 than a 9mm. However, I don't reload and there just isn't much available in factory self-defense loads. So, I passed on getting one and got another 9mm which has several good factory offerings.

[74A95]

Awesome cartridge. A handloader's dream - can equal the 9X23 Winchester and still be within 38 Super pressure limits with the right selection of components. Super accurate to boot!

[Aguila Blanca]

I have a cobbled together Government-sized 9mm that I bought a .38 Super barrel for. I love the cartridge, and I admit to lusting after a Colt Commander in .38 Super.

[rock185]

Brutus, Too late for me to become enamored. I've been shooting a succession of Supers since the early '70s, and reloading the Super for almost as long. My first, a Combat Commander, and later a Series '70 Government model, had the old style barrels that attempted to headspace cartridges on the case mouth. They were both reliable, but absolutely dismal otherwise,i.e., terrible accuracy, flattened and pierced primers, bulged brass,etc. Most of my Supers were Colts, but now have a Kimber and STI in 38S. Both of these have been boringly reliable and trouble free by the way.

I really enjoy the caliber now that manufacturers use barrels headspacing on the case mouth. Hand loaders, and boutique ammunition manufacturers, can certainly produce ammunition that safely exceeds anything 9X19 can do. I think the Super most obviously pulls ahead of 9mm with the heavier bullet weights, 147 grains,etc. I've loaded safe 38S ammunition with 124/125 grain bullets that approximate the ballistics of the 9X23 Winchester cartridge. Didn't set out to achieve 9X23 ballistics, but got surprisingly close, with no issues whatsoever.

BTW, Most published 9mm data I've seen is from 4" barrels, while 38 Super data is usually quoted from 5" barrels. In chronographing both 9mm and 38S in 5" barrels, ballistics are more similar. It has also been my experience that 9mm 1911s, using the integrally ramped barrels employed by manufactures now days, are as functionally reliable as 1911s in 38S, 45 ACP, etc.......ymmv

[Mike Irwin]

We've had a couple of good threads on the .38 Super over the past year or so.

I've always wanted a .38 Super, but I've never pulled the trigger on one, so to speak.

[JDBerg]

.38 Super is an excellent and viable option if, when, and only, you reload for it.

[RickB]

I've never shot anything but .38 ACP-level loads in my Super, but I love the cartridge in a 1911, because, as noted above, it's inherently more reliable than 9mm, inexpensive to handload compared to .45, and probably more reliable than any other cartridge in a 1911.

I probably have 3000 rounds through two Supers, a Springfield Mil-Spec and a Colt '91, and I think the only "malfunctions" I've had resulted from using over-expanded brass for handloads (brass that had probably been left on the ground intentionally by the prior owner), that required pounding two or three cases out of the chamber with a rod.

My buddy's gun on the left, with replacement sights, grips, and trigger.
Mine also has new grips and trigger, plus ambi safety, bobbed hammer and grip safety. I don't think Colt is still offering any '91 models, but there are lots of them out there.

[Hanshi]

I've been a "super" fan since the 1970s; and several have passed through my hands, both Commanders and Gov models. The one I have now, a series 70 from the 70s, is a Gov model with a bar-sto barrel and micro sights. The Colt barrel wasn't all that bad but the stainless Bar-sto is amazing. I handload and the .38 Super/acp is a reloaders dream.

[Brutus]

While I have some 124 & 147 XTP's to try out the only thing available in bulk at the time was the Hornady 115 HAP bullets, which worked out fine for target shooting. Funny thing about having a reloading hobby, in my case I tend to gravitate towards less popular calibers. Didn't like the 40S&W bought a 10mm.
Don't like 9mm so I bought a .38 Super. Love the .45 Colt, rounds cost about the same to reload and are cheaper than commercial rounds.
Just decided I gotta have a .41 Magnum yaahaaahaaahaha. ( they don't have a crazy smillie)

[rodfac]

I've had a pair of .38 Supers over the years....well....really one Colt slide & barrel assembly that's done duty on two 1911 Commanders; one a Colt and the other Ruger's CMD. Both worked well with zero fitting, though I did replace the .45 ejector. And surprise, surprise, both were at least as accurate as the original .45 ACP uppers.

The caliber is a good one, but largely a handloading proposition. My guns seemed to prefer heavier weight bullets; 125 & 130 grainers, but would feed and function with any bullet that allowed a reasonable overall cartridge length. Accuracy, especially with Winchester's 130 gr. FMJ, was outstanding; often giving me sub 1-1/2" gps at 25 yds from a seated rest.

Most barrels in production for the past 20 years or so, as I understand it, have used the case mouth vs. the cartridge's case rim for headspace control. This has been a real boon to accuracy. It's an easy case to reload now, longer than the 9mm Luger to which it is often compared, and its length helps with older arthritic fingers (mine!!). Too, I buy only the nickle'd cases (helps to find them in my home range's grass), and the nickle easily distinguishing them from brass in 9mm and .380 when sorting for reloading.

For field use, I've had great accuracy & seen 1300 fps wink out on the chrono's display with 125 grain Sierra JHPs, but also have 1-1/2" grouping loads with Missouri Bullet Co's excellent 125 gr TCFP at 1050 fps. Lyman's 356402 sized to 0.357" is also a good bullet if you cast your own.

For concealed carry, I'd rather choose a 9mm if one is recoil sensitive, or a .40 or .45 if that's not a concern simply for the greater selection of bullet weights and types, and the availability of ammunition when away from the big city box stores. The Super's a good caliber, but somewhat limited in distribution in that regard. Brass is available from all the major suppliers, and will be for the foreseeable future due to its use in the various shooting games now in vogue.

Best Regards, Rod

[Brutus]

As stated I prefer a 45acp for personal defense for the following reasons:
1. Big & slow is the way to go, may not expand but will never shrink.
2. Less muzzle flash.
3. Easier on the ears.

Aside from that just read this interesting article in the latest issue of Handloader magazine about the development of the .357 magnum.
At the end of WW1 body armor was sold off as surplus.
Gangsters discovered that it protected them against all the current, at the time, handgun rounds with the exception of the Colt 130gr. Super at 1300fps.
which would defeat body armor.

This was one of the factors driving colonel Wesson to develop the .357 mag.

[HisSoldier]

For some reason I've found the 38 Super to be especially enjoyable to shoot. A friend let me shoot his GI Springfield a few years ago, I started looking for one of my own.
I finally found a used one but would have been happier with a new one, it's sad that Springfield isn't planning on making more, at this time at least.

I load 9MM Largo, the old .38 ACP and 38 Super with the same dies.

[pete2]

It's ok if you live in Mexico where you can't own a 9 or a .45.

[tipoc]

One of my favorite cartridges.

Used by good guys like Frank Hamer...

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hamer_guns.htm

and bad guys like John Dillinger...

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/hi.../DILLINGER.htm

http://www.machinegunboards.com/foru...howtopic=14707


tipoc

[Mike Irwin]

"This was one of the factors driving colonel Wesson to develop the .357 mag."

Col. Wesson never developed the .357 Mag. Phil Sharpe and Elmer Keith get the lion's share of the credit for inventing the concept of the .357 Magnum.

Keith abandoned the concept pretty early on for uploading the .44 Special, but Sharpe kept with it and had to convince Wesson/S&W that yes, there was a call for a cartridge even more powerful than the .38-44 HD (which was S&W's answer to calls for a more powerful police round, and the company's answer to the .38 Super).

Sharpe and S&W never really envisioned the round as anything other than a sportsman's proposition, and Sharpe bolstered that by doing a lot of hunting with both uploaded .38-44 HDs and early .357s.

Wesson didn't think the gun/cartridge combination would really sell, but finally agreed to bring it out as pretty much a custom shop proposition, complete with factory registration.

Fortunately he was wrong and the thing was a lot more popular than he originally envisioned.

As far as the final design of the .357 cartridge itself, I'm pretty certain that that was Winchester's idea when Sharpe/S&W went to them with the idea for the round. I've never found anything to indicate that Sharpe was the one who proposed lengthening the cartridge; Winchester's ballisticians apparently did that to make it possible to achieve the desired performance at sane chamber pressures.

[tipoc]

There is a very good article in the current issue of Handloader magazine #316 by Dave Scovill. It tells of Wesson's obsession with the 38 Super and his concerns that it could be the auto that allowed for Colt to beat them in the leo market. Particularly in that the Super made inroads there. So he became convinced of the need for more powerful loadings of the 38 Spl. S&W aided both Keith and Sharpe in the development of the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Mag.

In McHenry and Roper's book "Smith & Wesson Handguns" (1945) They describe the arrival of the 38 acp and it's boosted up version for the Colt Super 38 and it's effect in law enforcement. On page 112-113, Chapter 19, they go on to say...

"As may naturally be supposed, officers and directors of the Smith and Wesson Corporation were not happy to see their regular customers leaving them, while road patrols and raiding squads equipped themselves with the new Colt Automatic...Along in 1933 Douglass B. Wesson decided to do something about it."

So it is true that the appearance of the Colt Super 38 loading in a higher velocity version of the 38acp helped spur S&W to improve on the 38 Spl. and eventually the 357 Mag.

tipoc

[Model12Win]

It's a neat cartridge for sure, with far more stopping power than 9mm. I'd love a .38 Super 1911 some day!

[Brutus]

That's the article I was referring to.
What's not to like about a 100% American cartridge that makes the punybellum pale in comparison.

[agtman]

Nope.

Me neither.

If I really want to shoot a cartridge that resembles a .355-cal/9mm with a huge amount of testicular fortitude, I'll first grab my Glock 20.

Then I'll remove the stock 10mm barrel and drop in an aftermarket barrel in 9x25 Dillon. Load up 15+1 rounds of screamin' 9x25 awesomeness, and head to the range.

I'll get better ballistics than the .38S out of a gun I already own. No need to chase down a pricey single-stack 1911 just to shoot it.

[tipoc]

Ah but you can get a double stack EAA Witness if you don't like the 1911...

https://eaacorp.com/guns/handguns/wi...elite-match-93

https://tacticalgunreview.com/gun-re...ness-38-super/


A number of options in the 1911 format are double stack.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...-double-stack/

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/cate...ns/38-super.do

If Glock chambered a gun in 38 Super it might sell a few guns for a change. They're still living on the success of the 45 GAP

tipoc

[robert1804]

I resisted 38 Super because I didn't want to add another cartridge. But I did need an excuse to get a few new 1911's. So, I'm now finding 38 Super to be an absolute hoot to reload and run through a standard Baer P-II and a DW PM-38 CCO. I love the accuracy and the nice supersonic bark!