Norma 55-Grain Tactical .223 Debacle

Swifty Morgan · June 10, 2020, 03:59 PM

Today the weather cleared for a bit, so I managed to do some shooting with my new CORE15 rifle in .223. I set up in the shade and measured the distance at 58 yards. I used Norma Tactical 55-grain cheapo ammo.

I knew the rifle was not likely to be Olympic quality, but I was shocked to see the results I got. I would call it 5 MOA.

Has anyone here tried this ammo? Is it usually this atrocious? I'm hoping its not the gun. I can shoot considerably better than this with a .22 and Mini-mags.

44caliberkid · June 10, 2020, 05:29 PM

I did a search of reviews for this ammo, and whether in print or YouTube, the reviewers were getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. It is made by Lake City, supposedly to Norma specifications.

mikejonestkd · June 10, 2020, 05:40 PM

A few questions:
Iron sights or scope?
How well do normally do with an AR at 58 yards?
are your results with the CORE15 better or worse than you can shoot a similarly sighted rifle at the same range?

Swifty Morgan · June 10, 2020, 06:04 PM

Scope.

This is my first AR15, so normally, I do pretty bad.

I do a lot better with other rifles. Five MOA is horrendous.

Swifty Morgan · June 10, 2020, 09:30 PM

I took a look at an old .204 Ruger target I shot from 50 yards, and a whole bunch of rounds went into a hole about 1/2" across. That was with Fiocchi 40-grain ammo with V-Max bullets. That was from a T/C Venture.

mikejonestkd · June 11, 2020, 05:06 PM

Try a different ammo and let us know if the issue is resolved. Try some average quality plinking ammo, and some premium ammo too. Sometimes a gun just does not like a certain bullet or ammo. happens fairly often.

Swifty Morgan · June 11, 2020, 06:01 PM

I bought this rifle because my head was spinning as I tried to figure the AR15 out. There were so many options, I decided the best thing was to buy a gun off the rack, start shooting, and go from there.

Someone suggested the gun had the wrong twist rate, so I've been studying that.

This is a 9"-twist gun. I read an article suggesting it's optimal for bullets between 55 and 68 grains. I'm shooting 55-grain bullets, so I guess twist can't be the issue.

I was planning to use this thing to shoot 40-grain V-Max bullets. It's not a self-defense gun. Now that I'm learning about twist, I don't know if I can hope for real accuracy with 40-grain bullets from a 9" gun. And of course, I just splurged for 500 rounds which can't be returned.

I will try the V-Max rounds when they show up. Maybe things will improve.

brasscollector · June 11, 2020, 06:47 PM

I wouldn't rule out the 40gr VMAXs, my 9" twist AR loves the 40gr over some 4198. As for the 55gr stuff it would be hard to say whether your barrel didn't like that load or if the ammo is suspect in most any barrel. I usually have better luck with 55gr soft points than the FMJs in my 223s but I'm reloading.

Swifty Morgan · June 11, 2020, 06:52 PM

I found an old guy on Youtube shooting sub-MOA at 200 yards with a 1:9 twist and Fiocchi 40-grain V-Max bullets. He was freaked out even though he shot the rounds. He couldn't understand it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrrMzaTNzBA

Metal god · June 12, 2020, 02:15 AM

Your fine with a 1-9 twist with any weight up to 69gr bullets . I’ve shot 77gr out of my 1-9 and it did fine but it’s not recommended.

What brand rifle ?

Do you understand 5moa at 58yds is almost a 10” group . Was your group 10 inches or 5 inches at 58 yards? 5” is 2.5 moa

Swifty Morgan · June 12, 2020, 07:09 AM

At 100 yards, 1 MOA is a little over an inch. At 50 yards, it's a little over half an inch. At 58 yards, 5 MOA means between 2.5" and 3".

Metal god · June 12, 2020, 07:38 AM

Your right , I’m not sure what I was thinking . I’ll shut up now LOL

Swifty Morgan · June 12, 2020, 08:31 AM

Without coffee, anything can happen.

Tallest · June 12, 2020, 09:18 AM

I think Metal god did his math with a 2x multiplier instead of 1/2x multiplier.

Anyway... I don't think the over all situation is dire until you've tried 5 + ammo options and still can't group. I recently built a budget rifle with an AR Stoner 5.56 upper and 80% lower with magpul furnishings. Nothing precision about the build except the CMC program to finish the lower. I started out zeroing it with Federal American Eagle 556. I was at least 3 MOA.

I then checked to see if it would do any better with my groundhog hand loads. 60 Grain Nosler Balistic Tip Varmint going around 2920 fps. Oof! Opened up even more.

So then I ran the only other thing I had in the truck, which were PMC Xtac which are rated at 3120, but I have friends who have clocked them at 3270. Turns out the hottest thing I had was the most accurate. The PMC were barely over 1 MOA.

So much if it is just finding the load your barrel likes.

Metal god · June 12, 2020, 09:22 AM

Quote:

I think Metal god did his math with a 2x multiplier instead of 1/2x multiplier.

It was late and the coffee from the morning had worn off quite some time ago haha . The best I could come up with is I mixed up sight adjustments with group sizes . Sucks that it's in writing

Swifty Morgan · June 16, 2020, 03:04 PM

My new ammo arrived, so I finally got a chance to shoot the AR15 again. The gun is fine. I guess it just does not like Norma 55-grain.

I shot Fiocchi 40-grain Extrema, which used to have Hornady V-Max bullets but now has blue tips. I had to quit shooting early, but I got 20 rounds off at 50 yards, and the results are nothing to complain about.

The photo shows 8 rounds at the lower left. Then I adjusted the scope, and I shot 12 more rounds in the center.

I need to get a bench that isn't made of plastic. I'll put up a photo of my high-tech setup. The railroad spring on the table is for weight. I figured I would get rid of some of the bounce if the table was preloaded.

The butt situation is not good. I don't know if my buttstock is even suitable for resting, and my rear bag does not offer much in the way of adjustment. I used a Magpul M-Lok bipod today, and while it seems like a good product, you can't move the legs up in small increments. Just big jumps.

I had to put the crosshairs on the center of the bullseye, load up the bipod, and do my best to get everything lined up so it felt natural. I'm sure this gun will shoot better with improved support.

brasscollector · June 16, 2020, 06:57 PM

Yeah, I would say you're onto something there.

Swifty Morgan · June 16, 2020, 07:27 PM

I'm really happy. It looks like the top group is around 1 MOA at 50 yards, so if the target had been twice as far back, it would probably still have been close to 1 MOA. If I get a real bench and bags and actually learn how to shoot, this could be pretty good. I may be able to do sub-MOA at 100 yards, routinely.

And I'm paying 45 cents per round for match-quality ammo that also happens to be top-notch varmint ordnance!

June 10, 2020, 03:59 PM	#1
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	Norma 55-Grain Tactical .223 Debacle Today the weather cleared for a bit, so I managed to do some shooting with my new CORE15 rifle in .223. I set up in the shade and measured the distance at 58 yards. I used Norma Tactical 55-grain cheapo ammo. I knew the rifle was not likely to be Olympic quality, but I was shocked to see the results I got. I would call it 5 MOA. Has anyone here tried this ammo? Is it usually this atrocious? I'm hoping its not the gun. I can shoot considerably better than this with a .22 and Mini-mags. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 10, 2020, 05:40 PM	#3
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	A few questions: Iron sights or scope? How well do normally do with an AR at 58 yards? are your results with the CORE15 better or worse than you can shoot a similarly sighted rifle at the same range? __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

June 10, 2020, 06:04 PM	#4
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	Scope. This is my first AR15, so normally, I do pretty bad. I do a lot better with other rifles. Five MOA is horrendous. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 10, 2020, 09:30 PM	#5
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I took a look at an old .204 Ruger target I shot from 50 yards, and a whole bunch of rounds went into a hole about 1/2" across. That was with Fiocchi 40-grain ammo with V-Max bullets. That was from a T/C Venture. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 11, 2020, 05:06 PM	#6
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	Try a different ammo and let us know if the issue is resolved. Try some average quality plinking ammo, and some premium ammo too. Sometimes a gun just does not like a certain bullet or ammo. happens fairly often. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

June 10, 2020, 05:29 PM	#2
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,098	I did a search of reviews for this ammo, and whether in print or YouTube, the reviewers were getting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards. It is made by Lake City, supposedly to Norma specifications.

June 11, 2020, 06:01 PM	#7
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I bought this rifle because my head was spinning as I tried to figure the AR15 out. There were so many options, I decided the best thing was to buy a gun off the rack, start shooting, and go from there. Someone suggested the gun had the wrong twist rate, so I've been studying that. This is a 9"-twist gun. I read an article suggesting it's optimal for bullets between 55 and 68 grains. I'm shooting 55-grain bullets, so I guess twist can't be the issue. I was planning to use this thing to shoot 40-grain V-Max bullets. It's not a self-defense gun. Now that I'm learning about twist, I don't know if I can hope for real accuracy with 40-grain bullets from a 9" gun. And of course, I just splurged for 500 rounds which can't be returned. I will try the V-Max rounds when they show up. Maybe things will improve. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 11, 2020, 06:47 PM	#8
brasscollector Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2015 Posts: 526	I wouldn't rule out the 40gr VMAXs, my 9" twist AR loves the 40gr over some 4198. As for the 55gr stuff it would be hard to say whether your barrel didn't like that load or if the ammo is suspect in most any barrel. I usually have better luck with 55gr soft points than the FMJs in my 223s but I'm reloading. __________________ He may look dumb, but that's just a disguise. -Charlie Daniels

June 11, 2020, 06:52 PM	#9
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I found an old guy on Youtube shooting sub-MOA at 200 yards with a 1:9 twist and Fiocchi 40-grain V-Max bullets. He was freaked out even though he shot the rounds. He couldn't understand it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrrMzaTNzBA __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 12, 2020, 02:15 AM	#10
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Your fine with a 1-9 twist with any weight up to 69gr bullets . I’ve shot 77gr out of my 1-9 and it did fine but it’s not recommended. What brand rifle ? Do you understand 5moa at 58yds is almost a 10” group . Was your group 10 inches or 5 inches at 58 yards? 5” is 2.5 moa __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

June 12, 2020, 07:09 AM	#11
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	At 100 yards, 1 MOA is a little over an inch. At 50 yards, it's a little over half an inch. At 58 yards, 5 MOA means between 2.5" and 3". __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 12, 2020, 07:38 AM	#12
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Your right , I’m not sure what I was thinking . I’ll shut up now LOL __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

June 12, 2020, 08:31 AM	#13
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	Without coffee, anything can happen. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

June 12, 2020, 09:18 AM	#14
Tallest Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2016 Location: West of the Atlantic Posts: 418	I think Metal god did his math with a 2x multiplier instead of 1/2x multiplier. Anyway... I don't think the over all situation is dire until you've tried 5 + ammo options and still can't group. I recently built a budget rifle with an AR Stoner 5.56 upper and 80% lower with magpul furnishings. Nothing precision about the build except the CMC program to finish the lower. I started out zeroing it with Federal American Eagle 556. I was at least 3 MOA. I then checked to see if it would do any better with my groundhog hand loads. 60 Grain Nosler Balistic Tip Varmint going around 2920 fps. Oof! Opened up even more. So then I ran the only other thing I had in the truck, which were PMC Xtac which are rated at 3120, but I have friends who have clocked them at 3270. Turns out the hottest thing I had was the most accurate. The PMC were barely over 1 MOA. So much if it is just finding the load your barrel likes. __________________ Matthew "All men are ignorant. The topics of our ignorance may vary, but the nature of the world is that no man may know everything." ~ R Jordan

June 16, 2020, 06:57 PM	#17
brasscollector Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2015 Posts: 526	Yeah, I would say you're onto something there. __________________ He may look dumb, but that's just a disguise. -Charlie Daniels

June 16, 2020, 07:27 PM	#18
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I'm really happy. It looks like the top group is around 1 MOA at 50 yards, so if the target had been twice as far back, it would probably still have been close to 1 MOA. If I get a real bench and bags and actually learn how to shoot, this could be pretty good. I may be able to do sub-MOA at 100 yards, routinely. And I'm paying 45 cents per round for match-quality ammo that also happens to be top-notch varmint ordnance! __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.