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Old October 30, 2017, 10:33 AM   #1
bearboy1066
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Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45/70

I am searching for bullet recommendations for smokeless powder. i currently use 5744 and have been using 538 Postells and 405 gr jacketed. i am not happy with the results. i have reloaded for 50 yrs and the rifle has a Kelly Soule vernier and a hooded aperture front sight with a level. I shoot from a bench rest.Sub 1/2 moa groups are not unusual for me but so far this rifle ,ammo combination has me whipped. Using weights of 24.5 to 25.5 gr result in 3 in groups.What is a good accuracy bullet ,all ranges for the Pedersoli?

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Old October 30, 2017, 01:35 PM   #2
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1873 Pedersoli sharps should read 1874 sharps

Guess i had Winchester on the brain

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Old October 30, 2017, 03:17 PM   #3
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I answered this same thread earlier. You didn't need to change it due to getting 1873 instead of 1874....everyone knew what you meant. I have never found a more accurate bullet than the Rem 405 JSP for shooting smokeless out to several hundred yards. The powders that produced the best accuracy are Rel7, 4198, 2400, and 5744 (but it's dirty. still works but lots of stuff left in the barrel and it gets in the action).
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Old October 30, 2017, 07:37 PM   #4
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try shooting from a sitting position with cross sticks. pull the sticks up to the for end but resting on the barrel. sounds crazy and contrary to everything we know about shooting a bolt gun.
......bullet hardness affects accuracy in these guns also. good shooting. bob
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Old October 30, 2017, 07:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
....using 538 Postells....
- Sized to what diameter ?
- Made of what alloy ?
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Old November 2, 2017, 09:59 AM   #6
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The bullets I have been using are all sized .458 and are 20:1. I have ordered 5 different bullets from 405 gr to the 535 gr. Believe the larger bullet may solve the problem. Peder soli bore is .475
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Old November 6, 2017, 12:41 PM   #7
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Bore is .4575
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Old November 13, 2017, 12:07 PM   #8
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Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45/70

Went to .458 bullets 5 weights 2 powder charges 5744. chronographed . Results much better smallest 5 shot group 1.777 100 yds. 500 gr bullet
26 gr charge. Largest group all weights 3.248 27 gr charge. velocities from 1249 to 1373. will reduce charges to 25 gr and 25.5 hope for smaller groups.
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Old November 13, 2017, 02:24 PM   #9
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Please keep us posted, as I just recently purchased the 1874 sharps by Pedersoli. I really haven't been able to do anything as I have been fight the flu for two weeks now.
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Old November 14, 2017, 01:23 PM   #10
bearboy1066
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'Ill keep trying

Will keep you posted
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Old November 14, 2017, 07:26 PM   #11
mehavey
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I think I already posted this, but take a look:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...97&postcount=4
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Old November 20, 2017, 11:33 AM   #12
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Better sucess

I have continued with the.459 bullets in 5 weights. Sorted by weight all charges measured and 5744 powder. All at 100 yds ,sand bag and bunny ears. 26 and 27 gr charges produced only one group below 2 in. velocities 1255 to 1314 fps across all weights.23.5 gr charge 2 bullets below 2 in. velocities 1177 to 1277 fps. 24.5 gr bullets below 2 in. velocities between 1230 and 1277.
I think I am skipping all around the sweet spot that i hope is 24.5 to 25.5 gr. The last group of 545 gr was .58 in.for 4 rounds and the 5th stretched it to 1.42 [maybe it was me and not the gun].Beautiful day great light and no wind.
Report to follow .

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Old November 27, 2017, 01:36 PM   #13
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group size

.459 bullets weighed for consistency. 5744 powder 25.2 gr
405 gr 1.7 in
425 gr 1.89 in
500 gr 1.65 in
525 gr 1.39 in
545 gr 3 in flyer to 4.7, flyer was me.
My question is, with a a Kelley vernier Soule rear and a bubble level aperture front,assuming I do what I should what level of accuracy is achievable in 45/70.
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Old November 27, 2017, 02:45 PM   #14
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Depends on your eyes at that particular moment, the light (target definition), and your adrenalin levels at that particular time. On a very good day I could get 1moa on occasion, but for the most part it would be a bit over. I'm talking five shots, not three. Going from three shots to five makes it a LOT harder to get tight groups. That's when reality shows up. Most of the BS about 1moa groups goes out the window when you start talking five shots. When you start to average those five shots over time, the groups get even bigger. You aren't doing too bad right now.
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Old November 28, 2017, 10:54 AM   #15
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All the groups were 5 shot groups.I try and shoot in good light until i find the most accurate loads. The worst group listed was obscured by a shadow from a tree on the last target. i see what you mean.
I shoot only 2 other rifles with peep sights a 1903a3 Springfield with surplus ammo. It shoots about 3 in. and a 94 Winchester with a Lyman sight using the Hornady Lever evolution bullets in reloads I shoot about 3 in with it.
Thanks for the input.
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Old November 28, 2017, 11:24 AM   #16
Jim Watson
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That is really very good for white powder and storebought bullets.

Meticulously hand cast bullets of just the right size (Pedersoli advertises a tapered bore, so a good fit in the throat and rifling entry will likely be larger than you think. The Pedersoli mould casts and is shot at .460".

A well developed black powder load will often beat smokeless, at least in the long run.

But 1.5 MOA is a good performance at my level of knowhow.
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Old November 28, 2017, 04:06 PM   #17
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I have considered casting. I did years ago for pistol. if you read the earlier posts i weighed and segregated the bullets in 1 gr separation and load 5 of each group. Some were amazingly consistent the 545 gr were all either 544 or 545 gr. + or- .9 gr. I was thinking of trying .460 bullets and may do so. What would be your recommendation on bullet wt.?
In the event I do cast i would prefer to stick with one bullet design and weight.
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Old November 28, 2017, 04:35 PM   #18
Jim Watson
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My BPCRs are .38 and .40 so I have no experience with .45 bullet weight.
But the 520-540 range seems to do best.
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Old December 1, 2017, 08:55 AM   #19
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As a long time shooter of the old black powder cartridges, the bullet sometimes makes a difference.
I still cast/shoot lead, some like soft lead, some like harder alloy, even chilled lead better.
I have to *Assume* (and you know the old saying about 'Assume'), sometimes the hardness of the lead helps the bullet grip the rifling better.
I have a Sharps that simply won't shoot any kind of jacketed bullet worth crap, but it will still shoot dead soft lead sub MOA.

I also find a slightly faster powder reduced charge often shoots better than a lot of slower powders.
Don't ask me why, but an old gunsmith turned me on to it.

Just out of curiosity, have you run into the old Sharps .45-70 loads yet? (Opposed to .45-70 Govt) Sharps had some odd ideas about loading charge weights! I know it's a moot point now since none of the powders recommended are made now, it's just kind of cool history.
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:01 AM   #20
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I have tried 3 or 4 powders and have gotten the most consistent groups from 5744. That was all before going to the.459 bullets. i will probably try several powders with .459 as well as some with .460. Am waiting for a powder delivery now.
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Old December 7, 2017, 06:26 AM   #21
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Your bullets are probably your accuracy problem.

I have never shot store bought bullets that were better than 2 inch groups. Most were worse and the average was about 3 inch groups.

I have a 40-65 and several 45-70 competition quality rifles by both Pedersoli and Browning.
With these rifles I can shoot close to 1" groups but only with bullets I cast myself.
The 45-70 mold casts a 512 grain bullet using 20 to 1 alloy. The mold was made by Steve Brooks.
It casts the first driving band at .454 and the last 2 bands at .460 to .461. I size them at .460 or shoot them unsized. My bores are .458. Powder is 23 to 25 grains of SR 4759. I shot groups and got many unburned kernels in the bore with starting loads. I increased the load until the unburned kernels disappeared. Accuracy improved as the loads went up and the zombies disappeared.

The 40-65 behaved the same way with a 320 grn bullet cast in a gas check mold intended for the .405 Win. This mold should have cast .412 bullets. Instead it cast .410. This mold was made by NEI Handtools. The groove dia is .408.
These were shot with gas checks and were lubed at .410 dia. Alloy was clip on wheel weights. This rifle used 22 to 24 grains of SR4759 and accuracy hovered near 1 inch.
I also used 5744 in these rifles but groups were never as good. Because I tested both powders at the same time I quit testing the 5744 when I was successful with the SR4759.
These loads are only about 1250 fps but do not shoot them in some old Ballard or Trap Door.

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Old December 7, 2017, 09:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Because I tested both powders at the same time I quit testing the 5744 when I was successful with the SR4759.
These loads are only about 1250 fps but do not shoot them in some old Ballard or Trap Door.
This powder was dropped two years ago and is no longer available. Once in a while someone will privately sell some, but your chances of finding any right now are about ZERO. I have some and it does work well, but direct your efforts into finding a good load with a powder that you can get when you need it. I own and shoot several 45-70s, have owned several Pedersoli rifles, and all of them have been the least fussy shooting rifles I've owned over the last 45+ years. If you're looking for "light" loads that shoot very well (I mean really well) try some 2400. I have yet to see a gun that won't shoot this powder well at Trapdoor loadings as long as the bullet fits the gun. Oregon Trail .459" bullets will work in your Pedersoli. Note: Oregon Trail makes bullets in both .458 and .459 for this caliber. Get the 405g bullets and start with those. If you get into casting you can open a lot of doors for finding something even better. Good luck.
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Old December 7, 2017, 11:17 AM   #23
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I ask why the commercial bullets won't shoot well for you. The ones I have used in the .459 so far were remarkably consistent in weight, except the 405 gas check. As stated before I have resisted casting because of time constraints and i have not discovered the"go to" bullet and don't want to buy half a dozen molds and sizing dies to try and find the one best bullet.Not arguing just asking.
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Old December 7, 2017, 12:52 PM   #24
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What front sight are you using, I find that I am more accurate with the open globe sight instead of the crosshair or the blade. Maybe you should try out different sights.
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Old December 7, 2017, 04:05 PM   #25
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The commercial bullets are probably acceptable to many shooters. My cast bullets just fit better and shoot better.
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