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Old June 8, 2016, 09:37 PM   #26
raimius
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Asking a competent lawyer would be wise.
I am not one, but here is an idea to investigate...
If your DL/taxes go through your parent's address, you still keep some of your belongings there, and return there when not where the military orders you to be...that may (or may not) be enough to establish residency for the purposes of the GCA...
Thoughts from lawyers?
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Old June 8, 2016, 10:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).
Doesn't really seem unclear to me

Quote:
Question 13. State of Residence: The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his or her State of residence also is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2.)
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
...If your DL/taxes go through your parent's address, you still keep some of your belongings there, and return there when not where the military orders you to be...that may (or may not) be enough to establish residency for the purposes of the GCA...
Thoughts from lawyers? ....
Yes, it's about what the facts are. Maybe the facts are such that the OP has a good case that Arizona is is State of residence when he is present there, or maybe the fact don't support that

One reason the OP would want to tell everything to his own lawyer instead of everyone in the world with Internet access is that what he tells his lawyer is private.
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:37 PM   #29
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I would go straight to the horse. Call BATFE and ask em what/how you can do
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:55 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by Sharkbite
I would go straight to the horse. Call BATFE and ask em what/how you can do
Sometimes, yes, and sometimes, no.

Just calling up a regulatory agency and asking the question over the phone or by email is generally a waste of time and an unwise way to deal with a significant question if a wrong answer might have serious consequences. An agency will generally not be bound by legal information given over the telephone or by email, and folks answering the phones or email vary tremendously in their knowledge.

Lawyers (including me) often have occasion to seek guidance from a regulatory agency. When we do, we do so in a very formal way, and many agencies have specific procedures which need to be followed to get guidance.

Basically one needs to write a very detailed letter accurately laying out all the facts. It's important that the letter be carefully crafted because the agency's response will be based on those facts. If the facts are actually different in any way, the agency response could be worthless.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:53 AM   #31
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It's been a while since I've been in the Military but I suspect you still have to get approval through your chain of command to buy a firearm. Your leave probably isn't too long, so get the ball rolling well before your leave starts. You may have to keep your gun in the armory if you live on base but you may have some off base options. Ask now.
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Old June 9, 2016, 08:57 AM   #32
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You do NOT have to get permission to buy a gun from you chain of command, if you are buying it on leave and the gun will stay at your home of record when you come off leave.

The ONLY time a chain of command request needs to be made is IF you are bringing the gun on base. Highly unlikely in this case, as the OP is stationed overseas.
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Old June 9, 2016, 11:04 AM   #33
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One again, stories about what you or someone you know might have done are useless in answer to a question about whether or not something is legal. When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.

Any such responses will be deleted.
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Old June 9, 2016, 12:45 PM   #34
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When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.
I don't think anybody is disputing what the law says. I disagree with your personal dismissal of other people's experiences. I believe anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied, especially in cases where actual prosecutions are lacking. I don't disagree with you on the law. In this case I disagree with your interpretation of it. Is that forbidden on this forum as well?

Again, a person's best protection is a letter from the agency in authority on such matters.
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Old June 9, 2016, 02:07 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TimSr
Quote:
When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.
I don't think anybody is disputing what the law says. I disagree with your personal dismissal of other people's experiences. I believe anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied, especially in cases where actual prosecutions are lacking....
You're free to believe that, but your belief doesn't make it true. A few isolated experiences are hardly evidence of how law has historically been interpreted or applied, especially when the stories relating those experiences are in general terms and undocumented..

If you wish to claim that:
Quote:
...anecdotes do play a part in determining how it's been historically interpreted and applied,...
provide evidence supporting that contention. If you can't support your claim, I will continue to delete further posts offering nothing but stories.

Some people have done illegal things and not gotten caught. That is not evidence of the historical interpretation or application of the laws they've violated.
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Old June 9, 2016, 02:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TimSr
....I don't disagree with you on the law. In this case I disagree with your interpretation of it. Is that forbidden on this forum as well?
No, that is not forbidden here. But if you want to disagree with my, or anyone's, interpretation of the law, you need to cite legal authority supporting your interpretation. A story about how someone did something I said was illegal and didn't get prosecuted is not legal authority.
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Old June 9, 2016, 04:01 PM   #37
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Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm. The only mention of military in the law is a case where your duty station is in one state and your military residence is in another state, nowhere does it say you are no longer a resident of your home state for purchasing a firearm even if you maintain a residence there.

I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly.

No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave.

I have been consistent that IF he still maintains a residence in his parent's home he is allowed under the GCA to buy a firearm as he is an Arizona resident when he returns there from leave.

Again, I don't know if this is the case (that he still has a residence in his parent's home), but neither does anyone else in this thread. But if he does I don't see any reason why he cannot buy a firearm in AZ when he returns there on leave.
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Old June 9, 2016, 05:04 PM   #38
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It does specifically break it down on the 4473.
Also service members are usually well aware of the relationship of their legal residence and their military service. It's quite different than civilians are working and living abroad.

If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.
I don't need to quote case law to know when I can and cannot turn right on red

Seems like the issue is getting overthought.
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Old June 9, 2016, 05:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rickyrick
If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.
Here's the link to the 4473: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

Where does it say members of the armed forces can buy firearms using their home of record as their address? The 4473 asks for residence address in question number 2. The instructions for question number 2 say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4473
Question 2. Current Residence Address: U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable. (e.g., St., Rd., Dr., PA, NC, etc.). Address cannot be a post office box. County and Parish are one and the same.

If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both
his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).
The only mention of members of the armed services in the instructions is for members who are stationed in the U.S. but do not live at the address of the permanent duty station (in other words, the service member lives off post). There's no mention of home of record.

What am I missing?
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Old June 9, 2016, 05:43 PM   #40
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Armed_Chicagoan Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm.
No one has said any such thing.
1. Read the ATF Ruling on "State of Residence"
2. understand that ATF regulations never refer to "home state".
3. Discover what "Current residence address" means.
4. Stop inventing things that the OP has NEVER said.



Quote:
The only mention of military in the law is a case where your duty station is in one state and your military residence is in another state,
False. Again you fail to state what is factual. ATF regulations and Federal law NEVER mention the term "military residence".....again you invent something that does not exist.




Quote:
nowhere does it say you are no longer a resident of your home state for purchasing a firearm even if you maintain a residence there.
ATF regs don't mention the term "home state" because "home state" has no bearing on the purchase or acquisition of a firearm.

Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.



Quote:
I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly.
You have used a number of terms incorrectly as well as inventing facts.




Quote:
No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave.
Again wrong.
There is no statute about a member of the military forfeiting anything....but there is a statute that defines what "State of Residence" means....and THAT applies to members of the armed forces equally.
The examples above are straight from ATF. If you want case law to prove your point it's up to YOU to provide it.





Quote:
I have been consistent that IF he still maintains a residence in his parent's home he is allowed under the GCA to buy a firearm as he is an Arizona resident when he returns there from leave.
Sure, you've been consistent, but the OP said in his first post that he is not a resident of the state where his parents live. Quoting the OP: "..I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form..."





Quote:
Again, I don't know if this is the case (that he still has a residence in his parent's home), but neither does anyone else in this thread.
Again, you would be wrong.





Quote:
But if he does I don't see any reason why he cannot buy a firearm in AZ when he returns there on leave.
1. By his own admission, the OP does not reside in AZ.
2. The Form 4473 requires a current residence address, OP does not currently reside in AZ.
3. OP cannot use his permanent duty station address because it is not in the United States.
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Old June 9, 2016, 05:51 PM   #41
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rickyrick It does specifically break it down on the 4473.
It sure does. Yet you continue to state erroneous information.


Quote:
Also service members are usually well aware of the relationship of their legal residence and their military service. It's quite different than civilians are working and living abroad.
Again you fail to comprehend that there is absolutely no difference in between military or civilians who do not reside in the United States.

PLEASE reread the ATF Ruling on State of Residence.



Quote:
If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473 It's been done for years by millions of people.
Absolutely false. The Form 4473 says no such thing.
No ATF regulation or ruling makes reference to "home state" or "home of record".




Quote:
I don't need to quote case law to know when I can and cannot turn right on red
Yeah, you do. You and Armed_Chicagoan are letting your understanding of MILITARY policies blind you to Federal law regarding firearms.


Quote:
Seems like the issue is getting overthought.
Not if you can read and write English.
Sadly, despite posting the actual ATF regulations and rulings there are still two forum members who just don't get it.
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Old June 9, 2016, 06:13 PM   #42
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
Absolutely nothing cited here supports the contention that joining the military means you can't also maintain a residence in your home state for purposes of purchasing a firearm.....
Absolutely nothing you've written here supports the proposition that Arizona is the OP's State of residence for the purposes of the GCA and lawfully acquiring a gun in Arizona. Absolutely nothing you've written here supports the proposition that (see post 2):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...I'm getting berated for misusing the legal term of "resident", while the OP is assumed to be using it correctly....
The OP knows what his situation is. You do not. You're just guessing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...No one has shown any legal reasoning whatsoever, whether case law or statute, that a member of the military forfeits his right in "Example 2" of the law to buy a firearm there when he returns there on leave...
No one has provided any real evidence that Example 2 of the definition of "State or Residence" set out in 27 CFR 478.11 describes the OP's situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...I have been consistent that...
Being consistent is not the same thing as being correct.
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Old June 9, 2016, 06:44 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rickyrick
...If you are a service member, you can conduct business in your home of record including buying firearms, it says so right on the 4473...
No, it does not.

The 4473 refers to one's State of residence in two places ; question 2 and question 13.

As Aguila Blanca pointed out, the instructions for question 2 (looking at the April, 2012, revision of ATF Form 4473 (5300.9), reads:
Quote:
...If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2. If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2).
And the instructions for question 13 read:
Quote:
Question 13. State of Residence: The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his or her State of residence also is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

If you are a U.S. citizen with two States of residence, you should list your current residence address in response to question 2 (e.g., if you are buying a firearm while staying at your weekend home in State X, you should list your address in State X in response to question 2.)
Neither of those instructions on the 4473 say anything at all about the "home of record" for a Service Member. Both refer to one's residence and use the definition from 27 CFR 478.11, viz., "An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State."

A Service Member's home of record is not automatically his State or residence. Every single Service Member when present in the State of his home of record is not automatically there intending to make the State his home.

Whether someone is present in a place intending to make it his home is a question of fact and must be decided based on the actual facts of the particular situation. If one doesn't know all the facts, he can't legitimately opine on the matter.

We're seeing here a symptom of the "I say clip but you know I mean magazine" disease. That sort of casual misuse of a technical terms may be okay for a casual conversation about unimportant matters, but it won't fly when discussing law.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:08 PM   #44
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.
Not a correction, Tom, but a clarification: I believe the BATFE guidance regarding vacation residences is clear that, in discussing and referring tio vacation homes, their intent and interpretation is that you must OWN the vacation home. If you go to Naples, FL, and spend a week or two weeks there every year in a time share, I don't think that qualifies you to be a "resident" of Florida for that week or two weeks for the purpose of buying guns. Same if you rent a cottage on Martha's Vineyard for two weeks every August.

On the other hand, if you own a house in Naples, Florida, or a cottage on Martha's Vineyard, then you can claim to be a resident of FL or MA for the periods when you are actually living there, in your house.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:19 PM   #45
rickyrick
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Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.
so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?

Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it.
Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state, no matter where they are stationed in the world, for good cause as highlighted in the turn this thread has taken. Can you imagine trying to live a life and conduct personal affairs when you've been at five different locations in a year?

So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty; of course they must honestly fill out the form and have no other reasons to disqualify them from purchase.
It is correct that we don't know all the details, if his home state was not AZ then he couldn't buy a firearm there. If AZ is his home state and he can legally otherwise purchase a firearm, then no problem; no amount of insults to me or others can change that.
The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money. Hopefully I can comprehend enough to get myself off of the sponsor's mailing lists as well.
see you around.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:47 PM   #46
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Aguila Blanca
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Again for the inth time....For the purposes of buying a firearm, you are a resident of the state where you actually reside. It doesn't matter if it's your parents home a rented apartment or a tent pitched in your Cousin Bob's back yard.........but you must actually RESIDE THERE! Members of the Armed Forces on active duty may also use the state where their active duty station is located.
Not a correction, Tom, but a clarification: I believe the BATFE guidance regarding vacation residences is clear that, in discussing and referring tio vacation homes, their intent and interpretation is that you must OWN the vacation home. If you go to Naples, FL, and spend a week or two weeks there every year in a time share, I don't think that qualifies you to be a "resident" of Florida for that week or two weeks for the purpose of buying guns. Same if you rent a cottage on Martha's Vineyard for two weeks every August.

On the other hand, if you own a house in Naples, Florida, or a cottage on Martha's Vineyard, then you can claim to be a resident of FL or MA for the periods when you are actually living there, in your house.
I wasn't referring to vacation homes or vacation residences.
ATF clearly states in their State of Residence Ruling that ownership is not required as well as saying vacations and short term stays do not establish residency in a particular state. See the bolded text below.

Quote:
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
- 2 -
State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:52 PM   #47
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.
so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?...
It's where that person is actually living if he intends to make it his home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
...Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it....
But that is not the same as "State of residence" as defined at 27 CFR 478.11 for the purposes of the GCA. Read and understand the words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
...Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state, no matter where they are stationed in the world,...
Cite the law. And apparently that does not include buying guns in accordance with the GCA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
..So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty;...
Only if it's his State of residence as defined at 27 CFR 478.11 for the purposes of the GCA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
....The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money....
It's too bad that you can't accept that you're wrong here.

But the reality is the "home of record" is not the same thing as State or residence.

But let's see what the Army Staff Judge Advocate has to say (bolded text in original, underlined emphasis added):
Quote:
..."Home of record" is almost always the state where you first joined the military. Home of record (HOR) is an accounting term used by the military to determine a number of military benefits, such as travel allowances back to your state when you leave active duty. A Soldier's HOR is usually the same as the Soldier's SLR, but that's merely a coincidence, since most people just happen to join the military in the state that is also their SLR. Except in the military, HOR is usually a meaningless term. Military spouses do not have a HOR. You may only change your HOR to correct an error or if you leave the military and then rejoin....
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 9, 2016 at 08:21 PM. Reason: correct typo
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Old June 9, 2016, 08:05 PM   #48
dogtown tom
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Quote:
rickyrick
Quote:
Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.
so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?
An example would be if a service member was stationed at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, TX but actually resides across the Red River in Oklahoma.
When answering question 2 on the 4473 he would list both addresses as his "current residence address". On question 13 "State of Residence" he could list both TX & OK.

It doesn't matter one bit what the military considers as his home state, home of record or where he pays taxes or votes.



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Service members do have a home of record and it defaults to the address at which the person resided at the time of the initial enlistment unless the individual decides to make their residence at another location, but you must officially change it.
AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN..........it does not matter what the military thinks is the buyers home state. It has absolutely nothing to do with Current Residence Address or State of Residence.



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Active duty military can conduct business in the state of their residence as if they were physically present in that state.....
That's not the argument fella........it's about the ability to acquire a firearm.



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...Can you imagine trying to live a life and conduct personal affairs when you've been at five different locations in a year?
Irrelevant.



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So if a person was in the military, went home on leave they could absolutely purchase a firearm and leave it at their home before returning to duty; of course they must honestly fill out the form and have no other reasons to disqualify them from purchase.
Only of the buyer accurately listed his CURRENT residence address and state of residence.



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It is correct that we don't know all the details, if his home state was not AZ then he couldn't buy a firearm there. If AZ is his home state and he can legally otherwise purchase a firearm, then no problem; no amount of insults to me or others can change that.
Again, you use the term "home state".......STOP THAT. If you feel insulted it's because you continue to use an illogical argument.

"Home state" is not recognized by ATF or Federal law for the purposes of acquiring firearms.



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The main reason that I prefer this forum is because the staff pretty much kept the insults in check. I've even gotten some infractions over the years. But now it seems that staff is joining in, so SWAT magazine can say goodbye to my money and any future money. Hopefully I can comprehend enough to get myself off of the sponsor's mailing lists as well.
see you around.
Well, bye.
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Old June 9, 2016, 08:41 PM   #49
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Quote:
If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but does not reside at his or her permanent duty station, the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address in response to question 2.
so what is the other address mentioned here? Just made? up thin air? what?
The other address is the address where the service member lives.

When I was in the Army. I spent the better part of a year stationed at Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland. That was my permanent duty station. I was single at the time, so I lived on the post, in a barracks. Had I been married, I might well have lived off the post in an apartment in Bel Air, Maryland. In such a situation, then, my residence address would have been Bel Air, MD, and my permanent duty station would have been Edgewood Arsenal, MD.

Read the section you cited carefully. What does it say? It says nothing about a situation involving a service member who lives at his permanent duty station (or at an address outside of CONUS nearby his permanent duty station) and who has a home of record at which he/she does NOT live. That's what you're claiming. What the instruction says is, "the buyer must list both his or her permanent duty station address and his or her residence address."

His "residence address" is the address where he lives. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?
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Old June 10, 2016, 06:32 AM   #50
ATN082268
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Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
One again, stories about what you or someone you know might have done are useless in answer to a question about whether or not something is legal. When discussing legal issues one needs to look at the law -- not anecdotes.
You're absolutely right. The point of my post was to show there might be additional Military legal issues beyond regular Civilian legal issues. I don't know all the details of the OP's situation, so I thought it best for him to ask his chain of command.
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