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Old October 28, 2001, 05:11 PM   #1
Jake 98c/11b
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defensive/offensive non-weapons

Odd, cumbersome title I know but what sort of things can you keep at hand to use defensively in self defense. If I can no longer bring my folder onboard an aircraft what else could I use? I almost started a similar thread several months ago but kind of got sidetracked. As I remember I posted something about using wasp spray for an OTR trucker. I said that its composition was like a watered down nerve gas. Someone corrected me and I spent some time trying to figure out why I thought it was. All I can think of is the stuff my dad uses around his ranch, that has some similaritys to nerve agent.
I digress, what can you keep on hand that will not generate a second look even at the airline security station? The courthouse? The office if weapons are prohibited? School?

Sorry, for those who wonder OTR=over the road, as opposed to local drivers.
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Old October 28, 2001, 06:05 PM   #2
STEVE M
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For a truck driver I would recomend a 3-4 cell mag light. For airline travel either a mini-mag light or a heavy ball point pen.
With either you will need training and lots of practice. The full size mag light can be used like a police baton, grappling and striking (but only with training). the mini-mag and pen can be used just like a Kubotan. Again this takes training and practice. Hope this helps; stay safe.
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Old October 28, 2001, 07:03 PM   #3
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I am not trying to be funny. But, your bare hands many times will be what you are left with. As a result, it pays for all of us to know how to strike, kick, grapple, ect...

To answer your question about a plane. It might make some sense to have a heavy jacket you can wrap around your arm to help against a blade. Or, maybe some real heavy duty umbrella to smack the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] out of the next diaper head that pulls this type of stunt. I think the goal will be to try to get his weapon since we really can't have a serious one ourselves. Another thought, a belt with a steel beltbuckle could be used to close the distance.

The more I think of it. The goal will be to get his weapon. Anything that helps keep you alive while you struggle for it is good.
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Old October 28, 2001, 09:10 PM   #4
C.R.Sam
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Brain.
Belt n buckle.
Cane.
Inhalation aerosol.
etc.

Sam
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Old October 29, 2001, 01:30 AM   #5
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Four or Five Balck belts.

PP
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Old October 29, 2001, 11:40 AM   #6
Dave R
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Here's another thread on the same issue. There are some good canes discussed here, as well as some "stealth weapons", such as a credit card-like device with a signle sharp edge.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...irline+defense
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Old October 29, 2001, 11:48 AM   #7
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Please consider the fact that any weapon, impovised or other, will suffer if you have not trained to use it. I'm hoping you are a martial artist. STUDY STUDY STUDY! Along with that, preparedness. If you are more mentally prepared for eventualities, you will be able to head them off sooner. Now, for the "weapons" at hand...

1. pocket full of change. Hurl into someone's face as you close the distance. Won't honestly do any real damage, but it'll distract, and that's what you need to do to get in range and prepared.

2. 1 liter water bottle. Same as above, if it's full and you throw it to smack someone in the head with it as you are closing, it'll help.

3. keys. Like someone else said. Problem: it's a contact weapon, other problem: most of your solutions in this scenario ARE contact weapons.

4. Jacket. You may re-consider wrapping your arm in it, may want to swing it and attempt to use it to entangle opponent's weapon. Also if you employ it well, you can use it as a feint to cover a devastating kick or strike. Swing jacket high, kick to knee or groin, etc.

5. Belt with big buckle on it. This has the potential to do some damage, provided you can use it effectively. When's the last time you practiced beating anything with your belt? I see that as the big issue...

I guess the bottom line is that you need to be prepared to use anything as a weapon, and that starts with your BRAIN. Use it. I guarantee you the bad guys will have thought things out...
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Old October 29, 2001, 01:48 PM   #8
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My father's hardware store provides for all sorts of weapons at hand. One customer (little short guy, with a temper to make up for his size ), upon getting angry at another customer, picked up a pipe threader and took a couple of swings. The other guy ducked out of there.

I guess I'll have to add spit to the defensive non-weapon list. Whether you fake it or really hock a big gooey one into the opponent's face, your adversary will close his eyes and flinch and probably even wipe his face off, giving you valuable seconds to follow up with a solid uppercut, or draw your weapon.
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Old October 29, 2001, 07:55 PM   #9
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A local martial arts instructor teaches female self defense courses for the police department from time to time. One of his favorite stealth weapons is a chrome Cross ball point pen. Held like an ice pick, it is a formidable weapon for attacking ears, eyes, upper lip, temple, back of hand, etc.

I carried one thus for years and practiced, even formalizing katas for this implement. After discovering that the matte black ball pen by Cross did not fingerprint as readily as the chrome job, I began carrying that model and have done so for years.

There are martial artists who have made an art form of using a short length of rope or a scarf as a defensive and offensive weapon. With a lot of such practive, a Mitch Rosen or Kramer 1 1/2 wide belt would be a serious weapon.

Forget getting a kubaton or maglight on a plane these days.

walk softly and carry a lot of knowledge and confidence.

jay
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Old October 29, 2001, 08:25 PM   #10
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We are surrounded by fluids: water, soda drinks, alcohol, coffee.

Add hot sauce, salt, cocoa, pepper, or any other dilutant, then carry innocently...until projecting into attacker's face. This could also work well with face powder. Even a fairly small person should be able to do a LOT of damage in the two seconds or more you should have after such an action.
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Old October 29, 2001, 10:14 PM   #11
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Steel carabiner serving as brass knuckles
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Old October 30, 2001, 05:11 AM   #12
Jake 98c/11b
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Thanks guys, I had some of the same ideas, just wanted some more input. With a pocket full of change I might be tempted to make a sap instead of throwing it but both are worth thinking about. Had not thought about a short length of rope or belt as mentioned by Jaysouth aven though I have seen that once before. Certainly worth looking at. To the other Jay guy, Jayman, I am not sure if I would fit your definition of a martial artist or not. I have studied some off and on, I don't care about rank or belts, I am only interested in learning about a half dozen moves right now. I want to learn those 6 or so well enough to use them reflexivly. I haven't the time to study as broad based a system as most styles I have seen. I have toyed with the idea of sewing two layers of kevlar into the sleeves of my jacket for protection from from slashes. An idea I had in the knife fighting class I took last year. A lot of things are dependant on the situation. You could keep a maglite in your car at all times without a problem but a 5 D cell Maglite won't get past airport security. I have carried a D ring into a courthouse without comment in some jurisdictions but it was not allowed in others because it was viewed as a weapon. Give me another decade or so (or an accident) and the cane might work but as Someone said (in the link I believe) they may not permit that in some places for long. I had discounted the belt until Jaysouth mentioned it, limited mass of the buckle wouldn't do much I figured. A western style buckle would be better as a buckler (small shield for one hand) for defense than as a weight for offense was my thinking.

Thanks for the ideas, any more?
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Old October 30, 2001, 10:04 AM   #13
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Sap won't do you much good unless you're surprise attacking... in which case, why are you using a sap? Rope is an excellent choice as it can be used as a makeshift fist wrap (not a duster though), garrotte, mace (put your keys in the middle, hold loose ends), manriki, sling (tie two lengths together- 3' + 5'- to make a split pouch that can hurl tennis ball sized stones) or cuffs.

3' will tie up nicely into several interesting craft knots to put in your pocket (Chinese, Celtic, etc.) which you can take out and play with at anytime (be sure to know several knots)... bit too large to make a keychain fob though. In your truck or carryon you can easily carry and explain several different lengths of rope (especially if they're already in a craft design).

reNerveGas, I don't think they let aerosoles on airplanes. reSleeves, if you're caught wearing these... you'll miss your flight or worse.
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Old October 30, 2001, 11:46 AM   #14
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boots.... wear fiberglass or steel toes work boots... some stylish "dress" shoes provide a solid toe and have rubber soles for grip... swift kick to the shin, instep, or groin...stomp to the foot or knee cap works wonders... proper footwear is essential... if he cant stand then he cant fight too well.. follow up with mud hole type stomping to the head, chest, groin, and any other target provided..
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Old October 30, 2001, 04:19 PM   #15
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Jake,

When I mentioned the use of a belt above, I was thinking of using the belt, or rope, or scarf held between both hands to use to block with or to loop it and trap a hand or wrist or around the neck for the obvious. Around the neck or head, you would also get good leverage against an opponent facing you for a hip or shoulder throw to set up a mud stomping. If you got it looped around the neck, you turn so as to get back to back. Then a stomp to their calf and a forward lunge of your body would probably take their head off.

The crooked neck rattan cane sold by Cold Steel would be a deadly offensive and a very effective defensive weapon with the right training. But as someone mentioned, above, absent a serious limp, your cane would not be allowed in a lot of places.

During a tour of the visitors gallery at the House of Commons, I saw an elderly tourist releived of his cane and pushed around in a wheel chair for the duration of the tour. It was done so politely and deferentially the the elder gentleman thought that he was being accorded a special honour. Somehow, I just can't see that scene being replayed at a domestic airport or the local courthouse or federal building.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Jay
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Old October 30, 2001, 04:50 PM   #16
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I carry a cane. I also carry a doctor's note on letterhead explaining why I need it. Then there's the Bar membership cards . . . .
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Old October 30, 2001, 05:45 PM   #17
Jake 98c/11b
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Jaysouth, reread my post, what I was trying to say (poorly) was that my initial thought was to discard the idea of using the belt. Too limited mass for an impact but that, possibly, a western style buckle might have some limited utility. When you mentioned using the belt as you did it reminded me that I had seen that kind of use demonstrated (for defense against a knife actually). I really appreciate the reminder, one of the better ideas I have picked up from this thread. Since you mentioned it, do you have any training/experience with this? It has me thinking.

Paladin, why would you miss a flight or worse if they found a layer or two of kevlar in the sleeve of my jacket? How would they find it without cutting open my jacket?

All said and done, the mind is the only weapon, all else are tools. What other tools can I use?
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Old October 30, 2001, 06:01 PM   #18
Lavan
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cane or walking stick. pen

SHARPENED long key in folding key holder. Change in pocket. Brads driven into toes of shoes and cut off at angle 1/4" or so exposed. Various modified rings.
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Old October 30, 2001, 06:27 PM   #19
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Anybody ever look closely at the average penny loafer?

Nice flexible leather with a 10-12 oz hard rubber striking surface on the one end.....

Wouldn't really want that upside the temple or cheekbone.


Steve.
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Old October 30, 2001, 08:24 PM   #20
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Jake,

I saw a video many years ago featuring an okinawan ju-jitsu master who was using a scarf and a piece of rope for defensive blocks and traps. Sorry I can't remember any details, name or distributor. If my memory serves me correctly, the Russian martial art Sambo, uses every day items as defensive and offensive weapons.

If you come up with anything that is currently available please e-mail me with details.

I have a dummy next to the heavy bag that I practice on as the urge or frustration level impels me to do so, but nothing formal.

Best

Jay
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Old November 1, 2001, 09:24 PM   #21
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One of my coworkers received a gift from a vendor that consisted of a clipboard made out of solid aluminum. The flat writing surface was made of 6061 alloy aluminum, about 3/16 of an inch thick and about 9 x 12 with a heavy clip (also aluminum) at the top to hold papers onto the board.

It was heavy and my first thought upon seeing it was "Jeez, that thing's a lethal weapon".

I think if I were to have one custom made I'd have them make it legal-paper size and cut a hole in the base to fit my hand so I could swing it. Don't even need any sharp edges to hurt someone with that thing. Put a Red Hat Linux sticker on it or something so it looks like a trade-show giveaway.

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Old November 3, 2001, 05:01 AM   #22
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I am not sure if they will let you have one on a plane, but in any other situation, I like having a small fire extinguisher. Not only do you have a blinding powder, but a gas that will displace the oxygen that an attacker needs to breathe. Nobody in this country can deny your having one in your home or vehicle. If they try to, I am sure your homeowners/vehicle insurance company would be glad to make money off the deal. Taking your fire extinguisher away would be like welding a fire escape closed and would be a big risk.
 
Old November 4, 2001, 10:56 AM   #23
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IIRC Kevlar is not the right stuff for stopping edged weapons, as these will cut the fibres (bullets use different mechanics that subject the fibres to tensile stress, which they are designed to withstand).

Chain mail may be rather difficult to get past the metal detectors...

There are double bolt transverse locks for doors (work like placing a steel beam behind the door) that use quadruple beard 3" keys which would poke neat holes.
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Old November 4, 2001, 03:50 PM   #24
Jake 98c/11b
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Gunter, I was thinking of kevlar because I have some gloves lined with kevlar that are made for police officers. The kevlar is supposed to protect (some) from cuts. I don't think they will help much from a thrust but against box cutters (and the like) it should work fairly well. I have also seen gloves for butchers and meat cuters that are kevlar and this supports my idea, still only good for slashing but that would give you some protection. The gloves for butchers are 4-5 layers but the police search glover are only one. I was thinking that 2 layers would offer some protection and be thin enough to avoid notice. The one knife fighting course I took was Sayoc Kali and stressed using the back of the forearm for blocks so it should work with my (very) limited training.

Is the idea not sound? Anyone have any experience?
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Old November 7, 2001, 02:52 PM   #25
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Jake,
I was thinking more like a thrust, where its one fibre at a time against the edge.

A full blade chop would pit many fibres at once against the edge, so it should help more.

A slash or a tip rake would be intermediate.
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