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Old June 14, 2016, 05:07 PM   #26
dogtown tom
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zukiphile
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Marriage has nothing to do with a straw purchase, neither does marital assets.

What matters is who the actual buyer/transferee is.
Your two sentences above are contradictory and only the second is correct.
Sorry, but no ATF regulation makes marital status an exemption to Federal law.
Doesn't matter if it's a married couple, common law marriage, boyfriend/girlfriend or two dudes who are neighbors.

No person can buy a firearm from a licensed dealer on behalf of another person unless it is a gift.



Quote:
If she is buying an item with her own marital property, there wouldn't be a presumption by a clerk that she is purchasing as an agent for another.
Whether the $$$ come from a joint bank account or "marital assets" has no bearing on whether it's a straw purchase.

A couple of months ago, I had a couple come in to pick up a firearm the husband had ordered from Bud's. When they arrived he said she "would be doing the paperwork so the gun would be in her name". His name was on the invoice.

I asked if he bought the firearm, he said he did using "my credit card". I told him since his name was on the invoice, he would need to be the one to complete the 4473 and pass NICS. He refused, stating that he would not be able to pass the background check.

I refused to complete the transfer based on my belief that she was not the actual buyer/transferee.........he was. Where the $$$$ came from (marital assets, joint bank or joint credit card account) doesn't really matter. The firearm was not intended for her, but for the husband.

It doesn't take a detective to know when someone has no idea what gun is sitting right in front of them. This lady had no idea what it was.
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Old June 14, 2016, 06:15 PM   #27
zukiphile
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Sorry, but no ATF regulation makes marital status an exemption to Federal law.
Tom, there is no need for you to be sorry. You just misunderstood what you read. No one asserted that ATF regulation makes marital status an exception to federal law.

The OP described a clerk who assumed, perhaps out of an abundance of caution or his employer's policy, that the source of the money is the true buyer and that the recipient of the gift of money is a mere agent. As was noted on the prior page, that isn't necessarily true (see post 10), but one can understand that sort of vendor/licensee policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Whether the $$$ come from a joint bank account or "marital assets" has no bearing on whether it's a straw purchase.
I agree, and if you review the thread you will notice that the clerk's caution on this point was described as hypervigilance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
A couple of months ago, I had a couple come in to pick up a firearm the husband had ordered from Bud's....
That's great, but it is also distinguishable from the recited facts of the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
It doesn't take a detective to know when someone has no idea what gun is sitting right in front of them. This lady had no idea what it was.
It would only be funny to ask you to cite the ATF reg that requires a true buyer to know "what gun is sitting right in front of them", so I won't.

Have a nice evening.
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Old June 14, 2016, 06:23 PM   #28
dogtown tom
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zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Sorry, but no ATF regulation makes marital status an exemption to Federal law.
Tom, there is no need for you to be sorry. You just misunderstood what you read. No one asserted that ATF regulation makes marital status an exception to federal law.
Again, sorry that YOU seem to think marital status has an impact....after all didn't you post this?:"It's possible that if the couple were married legally (how would a clerk determine that?), in many states the clerk could reason that their money was a marital asset so that the card from his wallet would necessarily be paid from money that is also hers."

If marital status has no bearing why the heck bring it up?



Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
It doesn't take a detective to know when someone has no idea what gun is sitting right in front of them. This lady had no idea what it was.
It would only be funny to ask you to cite the ATF reg that requires a true buyer to know "what gun is sitting right in front of them", so I won't.
Where do you get the idea that I claimed there was an ATF regulation that required such? I never made that assertion.

COMMON FREAKING SENSE however, could lead even Barney Fife to surmise that a buyer /transferee who doesn't know make/model/caliber of the firearm they just supposedly bought might indicate something is amiss.
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Old June 14, 2016, 06:48 PM   #29
zukiphile
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Again, sorry that YOU seem to think marital status has an impact....
Not an impact on the identity of the true buyer. That's the part you appear to have misunderstood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
...after all didn't you post this?:"It's possible that if the couple were married legally (how would a clerk determine that?), in many states the clerk could reason that their money was a marital asset so that the card from his wallet would necessarily be paid from money that is also hers."

If marital status has no bearing why the heck bring it up?
Because I read this thread, understood what people wrote and made a responsive comment.

Note the bolded language above. The response you find mysterious isn't about the identity of the true buyer but about the simplistic brightline rule or policy the clerk appears to apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Quote:
It would only be funny to ask you to cite the ATF reg that requires a true buyer to know "what gun is sitting right in front of them", so I won't.
Where do you get the idea that I claimed there was an ATF regulation that required such? I never made that assertion.
That's the joke.
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Old June 14, 2016, 06:51 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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The OP had the answer at post 2.
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