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Old June 4, 2016, 07:52 AM   #1
Kimio
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Legal use of pepper spray?

I was reading an article about how a bunch of protestors continually harassed supporters at a Trump Rally.

In one video, a man was continually harassed as he was leaving, being shoved, and if I'm not mistaken, continually punched at by a mob of punks.

The question I have, is if this person repeatedly told them to leave him alone, and they refused to do so, does he have the right to pull out and utilize pepper spray to fend them off.
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Old June 4, 2016, 08:07 AM   #2
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Yep..

Defensive sprays like OC (pepper spray) are able to be used at a MUCH lower threshhold then a firearm.

Any psyscial assault or EVEN the threat of same, when your assailant has the Abillty, Opportunity and has swown the Intent to assault you, can legally justify the use of OC.

Now, TACTICALLY, that may or may not be the best choice, but from a defensible use of force standpoint, its legal.
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Old June 4, 2016, 09:17 AM   #3
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In a couple of the attacks, I'm not so sure the use of a firearm would not be warranted : multiple assailants, receiving blows, clearly out of control.

Why the police stood aside for 90 minutes and allowed this to occur needs clearly explained. Failure to separate the two factions was a major error, a dozen people could have been stabbed or badly beaten in one or two minutes of mayhem.
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Old June 4, 2016, 09:50 AM   #4
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At close range like that, the pepper spray is probably as likely to affect the defender as anyone else.
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Old June 4, 2016, 03:39 PM   #5
benEzra
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At close range like that, the pepper spray is probably as likely to affect the defender as anyone else.
A fogger, yes. A splatter stream, maybe. A spray foam or a Kimber Pepper Blaster, very likely not.
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Old June 4, 2016, 04:06 PM   #6
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When I was working as Shore Patrol in the Navy. I had a fellow SP let go with a long blast of pepper spray in a 10X10 room. I wanted to strangle him but he was in as much distress as I was.
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Old June 4, 2016, 04:59 PM   #7
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Yep...indoor usage is a problem. Especially with some spray patterns...fogs
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Old June 4, 2016, 05:09 PM   #8
Reloader54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio View Post
I was reading an article about how a bunch of protestors continually harassed supporters at a Trump Rally.

In one video, a man was continually harassed as he was leaving, being shoved, and if I'm not mistaken, continually punched at by a mob of punks.

The question I have, is if this person repeatedly told them to leave him alone, and they refused to do so, does he have the right to pull out and utilize pepper spray to fend them off.
I would say yes. But if he did it might cause more problems for him. Because other protestors might get involved and gang up on him. And if he was also carrying that to might cause some issues as well. The best thing to do is to always be aware of your surroundings and always have a way to avoid these types of issues.
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Old June 4, 2016, 07:04 PM   #9
Kimio
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Fair enough assessment there. That did cross my mind, since the use of pepper spray could and likely would escalate the situation beyond just shoving and occasional punching. It's a delicate situation that could easily boil over.

The real question I feel is where were the police during the entire fiasco? Why was it allowed to persist for as long as it did.

I understand they can't be everywhere, but shouldn't this stuff have been planned for in advance? It's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, that this events are highly controversial and ripe for social unrest events to occur.
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Old June 4, 2016, 07:14 PM   #10
Reloader54
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Originally Posted by Kimio View Post
Fair enough assessment there. That did cross my mind, since the use of pepper spray could and likely would escalate the situation beyond just shoving and occasional punching. It's a delicate situation that could easily boil over.

The real question I feel is where were the police during the entire fiasco? Why was it allowed to persist for as long as it did.

I understand they can't be everywhere, but shouldn't this stuff have been planned for in advance? It's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock, that this events are highly controversial and ripe for social unrest events to occur.
I saw a post from one of the groups I follow on Facebook. And they said that the mayor of the city told the police to stand down and not to get involved because he said that it might cause more problems. And it was also reported that the mayor is also a very big Hillary supporter and donor as well.
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Old June 4, 2016, 09:48 PM   #11
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The mayor now has a problem, violating the civil rights of the rally attendees. All he had to do was order the groups be kept separate, and he completely failed to do that.
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Old June 5, 2016, 06:52 AM   #12
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Ah, so the plot thickens, if that information is indeed true. How sad, his political pandering apparently takes priority over the safety of the people.
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Old June 5, 2016, 01:49 PM   #13
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The acceptable use of a non-lethal weapon are pretty much the same as use of a firearm, to stop an assault or when there is a reasonable belief that an assault is about to happen.

Using the Trump rally example veers real close to politics. Reports from both sides are different. One side says the use of pepper spray is justified and the other that it is not.
Who you believe depends more on politics than evidence.
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Old June 5, 2016, 03:17 PM   #14
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The acceptable use of a non-lethal weapon are pretty much the same as use of a firearm,
That is just NOT the case. All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.
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Old June 5, 2016, 03:28 PM   #15
T. O'Heir
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"...wanted to strangle him but..." Not issuing the sticks any more? snicker.
Like Kimio says, the real question is where were the cops and Donny's security guys?
"...The mayor now has a problem..." Not unless he ordered the local PD not to do anything about protestors. Hisonner didn't violate anybody's rights otherwise.
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Old June 5, 2016, 09:20 PM   #16
Buzzcook
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All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.
Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.

So what are the lower standards for pepper spray if assault or fear of assault are too high a standard?
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Old June 6, 2016, 10:12 PM   #17
KyJim
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Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.
Not in my state (Ky.) or a lot of other states.
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Old June 6, 2016, 10:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
All States (that im aware of) allow the use of defensive sprays at a MUCH lower level of threat then Deadly Force.
Really? The use of deadly force has been up held in property crimes. and not ones own property at that.
I think that statement needs some more research. Even if LEGALLY acceptable, i cant imaging employing DEADLY force against someone trying to take PROPERTY.

If someone is stealing my lawn mower, killing them seems (at least to me) a bit excessive. Having used (and seen used) deadly force, both in the US and abroad, i could not condone shooting someone over any property
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Old June 6, 2016, 10:33 PM   #19
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I can't say about any other state, but, in PA use of deadly force to protect property is a legal no no. Use of deadly force in PA may only be used in the case of immediate threat of great bodily harm or death.

A stand your ground law was passed a couple of years ago. It is worded such that the assailant must have a weapon of some sort in hand.
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