The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

[Tactical Jackalope]

The Guns That Criminals Carry

Just want everyone to know this. Understand it. Abide by it.

Carry enough gun. I know a lot of you are okay with a 5-9 shot pistol and sometimes not even with a spare handy. I could never do that. For a myriad of reasons. One of which I don't even want to go over.

Criminals have the drop on us. They choose the time, the way, and how they're going to attack you. Every shred of an advantage. Every nanosecond. Everything possible that we can have in our favor, must be taken without a seconds guessing.

Situational awareness. Mindset, training, and gear.

[CCCLVII]

what I got out of that article was that most criminals carry broken or unmaintained guns. Many where unloaded or loaded with the wrong ammo. Some that had the correct ammo where loaded with pistol shot shells.

The ones that where loaded and working often where not fully loaded or loaded with a mixture of ammo. OF the ones that where fully loaded with the same ammo often times it was round nose or ball ammo.

What that article told me is that I would be perfectly fine with a j-frame. I choose to carry a 1911 but it has more to do with the fact I like to shoot it.

I do not see how they got the conclusions they had with the data they presented.

– Unloaded- 24 (28%)
– Less than fully-loaded- 4 (5%)
– Loaded with the wrong caliber ammunition- 2 (2%)
– Loading status unknown- 6 (7%)
– Fully Loaded- 49 (57%)

– .22 Short, Long Rifle, and Magnum- 9
– .25 ACP- 3
– .32 ACP, Short or Long- 5
– .380 ACP- 5
– .38 SPL or S&W- 4
– 9mm- 26
– .357 Mag, or Sig- 5
– .40 S&W- 4
– .45 ACP- 5
– .50 AE- 1

When the guns were loaded, they contained a strange mix of ammunition. Of the loaded handguns:
– 26 were loaded with FMJ or RNL ammunition- (51%)
– 14 contained Jacketed Hollowpoint ammunition- (27%)
– 9 contained some mix of several different ammunition types (18%)
– 2 were loaded with handgun shotshells- (4%)
- See more at: http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne....2AkpVt22.dpuf

[Tactical Jackalope]

Well as he stated, he is not in Miami or Los Angeles. But I am in Miami, and I've seen the opposite. He's in a small police station in the Midwest. I'm in a major city. Another thing I take into consideration that I think he failed to mention, is multiple attackers. I just like to be prepared for the worst case scenario not the best case scenario.

I love 1911's, SIG's, and Heckler and Koch pistols. I do not resonate with Glock on a gun enthusiast level. But I do when it comes to self defense. It just makes the most sense given the weight, capacity, and durability.

[kraigwy]

In my 20 years in LE I observed a couple things:

For the most part, there are always exception.

Criminals don't buy guys (except from other criminals)

Criminals don't buy ammo

It is quite common to find a criminals gun that is partially loaded.

If their gun is out of ammo, they normally steal another.

And they cant shoot. (he problem with this one, a huge majority of SD shooting occur in 5-6 feet, don't really need to know how to shoot)

If they aren't high they will flee or surrender if confronted by someone else who is armed.

If they are high on drugs, its anybodys guess.

They don't expect resistance, it they demand you wallet, they expect you to reach for a wallet, if you produce a revolver instead, they freeze for a second or two and give you the advantage.

Home invasions are scary. Burglars normally pick houses that are empty. Home invaders expect people to be homes, they enter fast and try to control the situation before the home owner can make it to the bedroom or where ever, to get their defense weapon.

This latter, in my opinion is the most dangerous.

There are two types of car jackers, those who just want your car, let them have it (assuming you not also giving them your kids in the back seat0
and the second wants you and he car, they may want to take them to ATM's to get as much money as possible, or they may want to make sure they leave no witness.

Having said this, there is no such thing as always, and every rule has an exception.

Drugs are Scary, Home Invasions are scary, and carjackings are scary. One should train to react to these.

If discover they want property, let them have it. You made, in you location, be justified in using deadly force........but right wrong or indifferent, its gonna haunt you the rest of your life.

People aren't conditioned to take human life in this day an age. And believe me, no matter how we say on internet forums a person deserves to get killed, if it happens to you its gonna bother you the rest of your life.

[Uncle Malice]

Cool article. I think, as briefly discussed, location and environment play a large role in how you think about self defense.

Living in the Phoenix valley, we have a BOAT LOAD of legal gun owners. You're almost never a stones throw away from hitting someone with a gun on them. While there are certainly high-crime areas of the valley, mostly in the South Phoenix area, my work area in North Scottsdale and my home out in Surprise are both well kept, low-crime areas.

If I were purely carrying a gun for self-defense like it was my wallet, I'd probably spend the vast majority of my time carrying something like a Glock 26 or even a Shield. While those are both great guns and I would necessarily feel under-gunned with either of them, I also change my carry gun pretty regularly simply because I LIKE my guns. I don't really need to worry about deep concealment as my work is gun friendly. I frequently go to the range on my lunch breaks. So more often than not, I carry a larger, full-sized pistol. This is good because it gives me more shootability if I should actually need it... and I guess it's a little comforting knowing I have a bigger gun on me and I'm confident in it.

If I'm specifically going some place new or traveling to a place where I know there might be a better chance of something happening, I put a little more thought into what I'm carrying and how I'm carrying it. Lately, that usually ends up going to either the Glock 19 or P320 Compact. For some reason, I usually go 9mm when I feel like there's an elevated threat level because I want as many rounds as possible vs the hard hitting rounds of the 45. Maybe that's bad thinking, but it works for me and (thankfully) I haven't had to find out if that's a good or bad decision yet.

[TailGator]

This was a very local study. The author said that but did not emphasize it. Similar records taken in your locale could very easily be quite different.

I don't attach much significance to the number of handguns that were incompletely loaded. Any rounds coming my way is bad news, and facing, say, a G19 that is downloaded by two or three rounds does not give me much advantage at all, none unless the fight is protracted.

And although a large number of these BGs were poorly prepared, a significant proportion had decent weaponry. I think it unwise to assume any deficiencies on the point of an adversary. Overall, the study confirms my belief that we could face almost anything and should prepare thusly.

[TimSr]

This "study" is far too small of a sample to jump to any conclusions other than most criminals are not gun ethusiasts or gurus, and they carry whatever they can steal or buy from somebody else who stole them. They don't go shopping for premium self defense ammo, or debate "stopping power".


I think kraigwy has spretty well nailed the entire spectrum of armed criminals except maybe the professional hit man, or the terrorist.

[leadcounsel]

I have my suspicions that those intending to do you harm are not coming with an unloaded pea shooter.

I watch a lot of videos of actually assaults and shootings. These generally involve 1-3 well-armed individuals who are immediately aggressive and well-armed with deadly weapons.

My preparations are for 2-3 individuals with real handguns or long-guns shooting real bullets.

You may not have many advantages, but mental preparation, reacting quickly and decisively and having a high capacity pistol immediately available is about all you have when it comes to defense.

[kraigwy]

Problem:

Large high capacity pistols require large pistols. Large pistols are difficult and uncomfortable to conceal and carry.

They are too often taken off the person, and left in the car, left on the bedroom stand or put in a "quick release" gun safe to protect kids in the home.

People are going to chime in and say I always carry mine, its not that uncomfortable, etc. etc. but if they are honest with them selves (even though they wont admit it here) all too often they don't have their pistol/revolver on their person.

A small pistol in the pocket beats a large pistol in the truck every time.

How many of you really carry a high cap 15+ round pistol with you 24/7? Be honest. Worse yet, they carry one or more back ups and access to long rifles.

I hear this all the time. Yet if I meet them on the street or at a store, I ask them where their gun is... You'd be surprised.

But those who carry small guns, like 5 shot J frames always seem to have their's on their person.

Be honest with your self, think back, do you always have access to your SD weapon, while safely keeping it out of reach of children (like in your pocket)?

[BlueTrain]

I would be more interested in reading something about why certain individuals end up getting attacked or have their houses burglarized (or as the current expression is, "invaded"). What is it that people do that make themselves targets?

Of course, not every victim (if you have a better word, then use it) is the subject of a random attack on a jogging trail at ten o'clock at night in the park or is unfortunately at home when someone, for some reason, picks your house to search for your cache of gold coins you're keeping for when the government collapses. Or your guns, more likely.

I'd suggest that many victims are shot or shot at because they patronize bars, drug dealers or other men's wives. And some people actually believe there's nothing wrong with jogging at ten o'clock at night in the city park. Those are the people who wind up missing. And we all know there are people who seem to be quick to get in a fight.

The only individual I've personally known who was murdered was shot in her bed as she lay sleeping by her husband's girlfriend. Know thyself may be good advice but to know thy husband is critical.

Basically, there was nothing particularly useful in the article, even though it was interesting to read. The rack of handguns would probably look an awful lot like the ones we have, if we still had all the ones we ever owned.

[Tactical Jackalope]

People are going to chime in and say I always carry mine, its not that uncomfortable, etc. etc. but if they are honest with them selves (even though they wont admit it here) all too often they don't have their pistol/revolver on their person.

A bit grandiose of you to think that way.

Also wrong. Mine is always on me. From the moment I wake up to the moment I take my pants off and go to sleep.

Smallest gun I've carried are Glock 19 sized too. With 2 spare magazines.

Just because you or others don't want to do it or don't find it comfortable, doesn't mean no one else can or does.

A small pistol in the pocket beats a large pistol in the truck every time.

And a full size or compact on the person beats the pistol in the pocket.

How many of you really carry a high cap 15+ round pistol with you 24/7? Be honest. Worse yet, they carry one or more back ups and access to long rifles.

Me! I also have been known to carry a J-Frame appendix as well when travelling with my fiance or at work. All the time. At the least I have a full sized or compact pistol with 2 spares.

I hear this all the time. Yet if I meet them on the street or at a store, I ask them where their gun is... You'd be surprised.

You're asking all the wrong people.

But those who carry small guns, like 5 shot J frames always seem to have their's on their person.

I'm glad. They're light and easy to carry. But just because they don't want to make an extra effort to carry a more suitable defense gun and would rather carry a back up instead, doesn't make it right. There ARE better options.

Be honest with your self, think back, do you always have access to your SD weapon, while safely keeping it out of reach of children (like in your pocket)?

hmmmmm..... yes. 1 o'clock or 4 o'clock. All times. From eyes open in the AM to eyes closed at night. Not that hard. I know a plethora of people who do it.

[TimSr]

Just because you or others don't want to do it or don't find it comfortable, doesn't mean no one else can or does.

Nor did he make that claim.

I guess I can answer with, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone else does.

His statement was "all too often...".

[Tactical Jackalope]

Originally Posted by TimSr

Nor did he make that claim.

I guess I can answer with, just because you do, doesn't mean everyone else does.

His statement was "all too often...".

Hello. I assume you're his lawyer. He's a grown man, I'm sure he can respond accordingly.

Again. For him to respond as it was directed towards him. But it was a very general statement. So I responded.

I don't see where your comments help any side of the fence or thread.

[Grant D]

The only high cap pistol I own is a Beretta 92FS and I never cc it.

I do carry on occasion a Ruger LC9 in a Crossbreed IWB holster, like today with a spare magazine in a knife holder on my belt.
But normally it's a J frame on my hip and LCP in my back pocket.

When I get home I will remove the primary, but I always have the LCP in my pocket till I go to bed, and then it's on the nightstand with my primary, and a Walther P-38 in a clip holster on the bed frame.

The LCP at home will get me to the 9mm carbine in the bedroom, or the 12 gauge double barrel coach gun just inside the front door.

And I have no children, and no grandchildren that are under 20 ( God I'm old!)

[TimSr]

I don't see where your comments help any side of the fence or thread.

Actually, I was genuinely interested in your response to the point he made. Do you think that most people who choose to carry a larger weapon are as dilligent as you about always having it on them?

I can speak only for myself, but I find even my snubby gets annoying in the summer, and I sometimes carry a .25 in lower risk situations where I'd probably opt to carry nothing were it were not available. I don't think I'm the only one out there.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Actually, I was genuinely interested in your response to the point he made. Do you think that most people who choose to carry a larger weapon are as dilligent as you about always having it on them?

Do I think people who carry a larger weapon are more diligent in always having it on them? The ones I know personally? Yes. But I can't speak for everyone and nor do I generalize unless I know it all. Since I don't, I can only speak for what I know personally. It is possible. A lot of people I know including myself do it.

I can speak only for myself, but I find even my snubby gets annoying in the summer, and I sometimes carry a .25 in lower risk situations where I'd probably opt to carry nothing were it were not available. I don't think I'm the only one out there.

Really? I'm in Miami, FL and always sweating. Literally. Haha. Well, I wish you'd carry something bigger. But better than nothing!

[stagpanther]

The only individual I've personally known who was murdered was shot in her bed as she lay sleeping by her husband's girlfriend.

Now this is one of the most intriguing scenarios I've ever read!

[Mannlicher]

Constantine mentions mindset, training and gear. I really think mindset (and by extension, situational awarness) is the key.
Training is good, and it's important, and certainly what you have in the way of a firearm is important, but if you don't know what is happening around you, and you don't have the mindset to REACT, then all the training and gear is wasted.

I too live in Miami about half the time. My choice for daily carry is a Springfield XDS .45 ACP. It's not always the easiest to carry, but I feel it is the best balance between size, effectivness, reliability and ergonomics.

[samsmix]

Hello. I assume you're his lawyer. He's a grown man, I'm sure he can respond accordingly.

Well for one thing its an open forum; anyone can chime in. For another, TimSr chimed in with a valid and accurate point.

...I think I see why a full size gun or two with lots of spare mags, might make lot of sense for you.

...but then you'll just remind me that they are grown men and can respond for themselves.


Frankly I DON'T live in a state that feels like a swampy crotch, but it does get well over 100° here in the summer, and I agree fully with KraigWY: I DO downsize if the situation warrants it, though I try not to drop below .380. The .327 in a 6 shot LCR wouldn't go amiss. IF I knew there would be a pistol fight that day, I'd bring a rifle or shotgun, or better yet I would opt out of attending. When carrying small I DO change my threat assessment and tactics accordingly, but my mindset is still not one of defeat. With my pocket gun (not usually pocket carried) I can put COM hits on target quickly at 25yards, and will hit the torso somewhere from 50yards with cover to brace on (better to disengage possibly at this point)
My duty weapon launches a 125gr hp at 1700fps, and I WILL hit what I shoot at with it...but it only holds 6 shots I DO NOT feel under gunned.

[AK103K]

Also wrong. Mine is always on me. From the moment I wake up to the moment I take my pants off and go to sleep.

Smallest gun I've carried are Glock 19 sized too. With 2 spare magazines.

Just because you or others don't want to do it or don't find it comfortable, doesn't mean no one else can or does.

Mine are always on me, every waking moment as well. I also carry a 17, and usually a back up (26) as well.

And a full size or compact on the person beats the pistol in the pocket.

I agree. To me, pocket pistols are third line guns. I have a number of them, but rarely carry them anymore. They get range time, just to stay familiar with them, and to reinforce why they are third line, and going on down.

You always hear how a pocket pistol is the fastest into action, but who walks around with their hand in their pocket 24/7? Start from a natural, "hands out of the pocket" position, or any other "realistic" any given moment, and then throw a "startle" draw into the mix, and see how fast they are.

How many of you really carry a high cap 15+ round pistol with you 24/7? Be honest. Worse yet, they carry one or more back ups and access to long rifles.

I do (18/6 anyway, although my guns are within reach when Im in bed), and have for a long time now, ever since I stopped carrying a 1911. And again, I do usually carry a back up as well.

I hear this all the time. Yet if I meet them on the street or at a store, I ask them where their gun is... You'd be surprised.

I wouldnt, as Ive asked close friends and family that very same question, and got the response your alluding to.

Then again, on the other hand, Ive answered the same, simply because I dont tell anyone Im carrying anything. I was always well armed when asked, and answered "Not on me" every time.

So, just maybe, some of who you asked, werent being honest with you either.

I'm glad. They're light and easy to carry. But just because they don't want to make an extra effort to carry a more suitable defense gun and would rather carry a back up instead, doesn't make it right. There ARE better options.

Agree here too, there ARE.

Be honest with your self, think back, do you always have access to your SD weapon, while safely keeping it out of reach of children (like in your pocket)?

Absolutely! Ive worn at least one full sized handgun, pretty much every day of my adult life. My kids were also constantly exposed to firearms, basically from birth, and were constantly encouraged to handle them and shoot. They were safer and more knowledgeable than many of the adults we knew/know, and/or would run into at the couple of ranges we belonged to while they were growing up. Properly trained and educated kids are not the problem, its those who arent. That includes adults too.

Do you think that most people who choose to carry a larger weapon are as dilligent as you about always having it on them?

I think that those who understand its a lifestyle, and not just a fad/fashion statement, or something cool to do, etc., are.

Constantine mentions mindset, training and gear. I really think mindset (and by extension, situational awarness) is the key.

Absolutely!

From a lot of responses Ive seen in a number of threads here, and elsewhere, Im beginning to think, there arent to many, that even understand what youre talking about here. They have a special, cool little gun, and carry it. What more do they need? Pretty scary really.

Of course, anyone who chooses to be a little more realistic in their gun choices, and who actually pursue, "mindset, training, and gear", are a little more than overboard in their thinking, and give those who dont (them), a bad name.

[Dragline45]

I'm glad. They're light and easy to carry. But just because they don't want to make an extra effort to carry a more suitable defense gun and would rather carry a back up instead, doesn't make it right. There ARE better options.

Well that's great for you if you want to carry a full sized handgun, but I'll continue to carry my shield with 8+1 and a spare mag, and not feel any less armed for it. For those who choose to carry a full size handgun, more power to you, but don't look down on those that choose not to, as you guys are not the norm and are the minority.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The norm is that most people with CHLs or CCW permits:

1. Don't carry at all. At most the gun is a 'car' or 'truck' gun and thus useless in most incidents.

2. Don't practice or train. Perhaps twice a year they go to the square range and spray the target.

Then, there are folks who carry a significant semi and an extra mag. They traini or compete with it. Or those if circumstances dictate carry a decent pocket pistol THAT they actually train or shoot with.

What else is new?

[Dragline45]

The norm is that most people with CHLs or CCW permits:

1. Don't carry at all. At most the gun is a 'car' or 'truck' gun and thus useless in most incidents.

2. Don't practice or train. Perhaps twice a year they go to the square range and spray the target.

Then, there are folks who carry a significant semi and an extra mag. They traini or compete with it. Or those if circumstances dictate carry a decent pocket pistol THAT they actually train or shoot with.

What else is new?

The norm for people who actually do carry on a daily basis, is carrying a compact or sub-compact. How much they practice with it is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Most people who carry do not carry full size handguns, and for good reason. The trend these days for just about every gun manufacturer is to make small concealable guns, because that's what the market demands. So again, for those who look down on others for not carrying a full sized handgun, you are not the norm and are the minority. If you feel you need to carry a full sized gun, go for it, but don't try to tell those that don't that they are wrong or foolish for not doing so.

[AK103K]

as you guys are not the norm and are the minority.

Thanks for the compliment.

What else is new?

Obviously, its "new" to some.

[AK103K]

I dont look down on those who dont carry a full size gun, but it is annoying to be constantly told, that you cant, by those who dont. That gets old too. Normally, when you bring up the fact that its easily done, you dont hear the end of it, and its usually from those who have little, if any experience doing so.

Those I do look down on, are those who dont/wont practice/train on a regular basis. If youre going to carry a gun, regardless of what it is, then you DO need to be proficient with it. For yourself, and even more so, for others who may be impacted if you do need to use your gun. That does require work on your part, and is your responsibility.