Your opinion on these for SD/HD...

[Slopemeno]

My two cents...sell the accessories. Put the wood stock back on it. Use the Federal Flight Control low-recoil buckshot. Practice. Maybe go shoot some bowling pin shoots with the gun so you have some real "muscle-memory" with it.

I really think the KISS principle applies with HD Shotguns. That third point-of contact you get with a cheek-weld equals hits in low light under stress.

[OldMarksman]

However, considering that no one has any reason to attack me, my home, etc. (indeed no one has any reason to do these things period to anyone), what have I lost by preparing for eventualities beyond my own homes boundaries? Remember Katrina? We are all just a big wind away from a nasty disaster that could easily take us beyond our usual safe boundaries.

Well, everyone who attacks someone else, or breaks into someone's abode, has a reason at the time.

However, the question of the 75 yard shot has nothing to do with "safe boundaries" and everything to do with (1) justifiability and (2) tactics. If someone is putting slugs through your windows from a distance of 75 yards and you present yourself to shoot back, that may be your last act on earth. It may also be judged unlawful, in that you may be judged to have had an alternative to shooting back--staying down, for example.

Shooting is and must be a last resort, and that's much more likely to happen when someone comes very close to you bent on mayhem or the kind of forced entry that could give you reason to believe that you were personally threatened.

[DPris]

The 75-yard shot is more of an example to illustrate a point than an exact figure, I'd think.
In my case I want to maximize performance. I can easily imagine a situation where a threat may have to be dealt with (people, animal, brain-sucking zombie, etc.) out to 30 or 40 yards, and I certainly would not want to be stuck with either a 20-foot gun or a 20-foot load in doing so.

Any gun set up for 30 yards can handle anything at 10 feet.
Any gun set up for 10 feet will have a harder time handling anything at 30 yards.

Denis

[Homerboy]

A few things the bird shot for defense crowd all seems to have in common; they most likely have never patterned bird shot @ the distances they speak of. Also they have obviously never tested for penetration. Last, when you present them with test evidence, they ignore it and stick to the myths they believe in.

You know come to think of it, most bird shot for defense advocates also tend to believe that the racking noise of the shotgun will scare someone away.

I will concede that birdshot will not have the same effect as buck or slug, but it is a tradeoff I am willing to make to safeguard my family. I have seen people shot with birdshot, and the wounds were nasty, and all fatal. I guess if a junkie strung out on PCP comes into my house and I hit him with birdshot, I'm screwed. Since the odds of that are so small it's almost not even worth contemplating, I err on the side of caution. Missing a shot with buck or slugs will blow through walls and put others in danger. Look at the new .380 pocket pistols that are all the rage lately. They won't cause the same damage as a .45 ACP, but the trade-off is comfort.

[Rampant_Colt]

I've got photos of birdshot injuries, and they're superficial, barely subcutaneous wounds.. If you guys want to use birdshot for defensive situations, that's fine and dandy▬just don't insist others make the same mistake as you..

Originally Posted by Homerboy

Colt, I disagree. Would I risk a shot if there was a family member behind him? Nope, but how would I know that if he's in my house in the middle of the night? And since I would be shaking like a leaf, I'm not convinced that my aim would be as good as it is on the range. It's a trade off. The odds of you using that weapon in a real HD situation are extremely low. 99.9% of gun owners will never fire their shot in a real situation (not counting soldiers or cops). I've seen gunshot victims with birdshot wounds. It is frigging nasty. The victims were all DOA. You could always compromise and go with a heavier birdshot. Still better than buck. But we all have our opinions.

We train and prepare for worst-case scenarios, not ideal conditions

Spare buckshot or slugs in a side-saddle to top off the magazine is an excellent idea for you folks who insist on using inadequate, under-penetrating birdshot or less-lethal shells..

[Homerboy]

What was the range of those wounds with birdshot? Because the ones I have seen were all in the home shootings, and they were nasty, and fatal. And since the odds of actually needing that shotgun to repel an intruder are much higher than actually hitting that target in the unlikely event you fire a weapon in self defense, I'll choose lighter loads. HOWEVER, I do keep 2 slugs and 2 buckshot rounds on my side saddle, since the odds are even higher that I would have to actually go to them if the birdshot didn't end it.

[Rob228]

No one has brought up the over-penetration possibility with slugs inside of a house. The reason I go with strictly buckshot in my 870 is that I live in a pretty small apartment with other apartments on three sides of me (But hey, it beats spending my full BAH on base housing). If I let a slug loose in here it is going through the BG, through a wall or four, and then who knows where. If the BG doesn't stop the buckshot, the first wall will.

Consider what is in and around your house and your angles of fire, and think if you want a slug traveling in that line.

[oneounceload]

How in the world would anyone know what that is? If someone is 75 yards away and putting slugs through my windows, do you think that has now become an "HD distance"? I surely do.

Can you post some links to news stories about this scenario actually happening?

Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws in FL allow the use of deadly force when you're in immediate danger of losing your life. 75 yards would mean you're living in Oprah's house, not the average domicile. In MY home, the longest possible shot is approximately 50 FEET- that's completely through the house. Factoring in that I would not be actually against the wall, we're talking 15 yards. At that distance, a typical load will be starting to open up somewhat. I, however have no use for slugs in that type of scenario - the ability to overpenetrate my wood-framed house, and that of my neighbor would be too great. Basic 00 buck will suffice, as will my 357.

YMMV

[Old Wanderer]

Ok,,,I was not going to reply, but this is a subject near a dear to my heart.

For the OP (6.8mmSPC_Fan), set up your gun, and go take some 2 or 4 day classes. Run some serious amount of ammo through the gun. Learn what your gun is doing. Find out what you can do.

I have 2 shotguns that I use for HD...

1. Original Bennelli M1 bought new in 1977, and competed IPSC 3 gun shoots with it for years. I shoot with the Armson Occluded Eye Gunsight (OEG).

2. Remington 870 Desert with a Vang comp barrel. with a Trijicon reflex sight.

Both will hold under 10" at 100 yards with the right slugs. Both will hold a 5" group with Federal LE 00 buckshot at 7 yards (don't be playing that peek-a-boo stuff with some hostage at that distance as you will loose), at 25 they open up to 2'.

I actively hunt each year, but mostly with 28 ga and 410's, but at over 70 do not compete any longer (too much emphasis on guns and impractical equipment for my taste). I try and take a 2 or 4 day pistol course each year, just to keep my eye/hand coordination up and 1 FOF class (either empty handed or edge weapon). So I am not your average over weight out of shape "wobbler"

To the point of all this and training....Last year just for the heck of it, I signed up for a 1 day shotgun class. This ought to chase the cobwebs out of the antique Bennelli, (that I had not fired a round through in 20 years. Found 500 rounds of BRI sabot slugs that I had stashed away over 20 years ago, bought a case of bird shot, and a case of Rio 00 buckshot, and 100 round of Federal LE 00 buck.

It was like dayshavoo all over again. The gun came up and the target fell down. At 25 yards the antique slugs printed at 2" with 3 out of 5 touching and 2 just below. The OEG sight was exactly where I had left it 20 or more years ago. Hot barrel and gun smoke, rapid reload, jam clear, it all came back.

Finally the big man on man shoot-off. 5 steel targets, single elimination. I really did not think I could or even should compete, but figured I could get by some of the beginners. Who do I draw on the 1 round, but a guy that takes this class every year. (And had the newest gee whiz gun and gear).

Competition is just a mini rehearsal for HD. You have an adversary, nervousness, and adrenalin, except you are not looking for cover, and are not being shot at. However you do have 20 students and several instructors judging your movements, and expertise, your every bobble. So as I come up to the firing line what do I do? Study your objective, know your moves, and envision the outcome you want. The end result, you need to focus on what you could have done better, and why you did not do that? Be your worst critic.

Well the whistle blew, and I picked up my 1st target fired, and kept moving for the next target, next target. Just as I squeezed my last target I heard the gunshot from my competitor, thinking I had lost....but as I was dropping my gun and watching the last target fall, there was another shot from my adversary. I had beat him by a full target. later that day I won the man on man.

In the end, there were a lot of comments about how did I learn to shoot so fast....The truth is I am not fast but was privileged to shoot with some of the very best in the world back in the late 70 early 80's. John Sacatterwhite, and Danny Reeves come to mind as 2 people that used to just humiliate me, and kid me back then when I was in my late 30' early 40's about being an "old man". Jeff Cooper at Gunsight, told me about the OEG sights, and mounted it on.

I will include my 12Ga training in my yearly exercises now, as I know how much faster I could have been, however until you train, and compete against the best, you will not have a clew about how good you can be. Or what fast is!!!

DO NOT JUST BUY A SHOTGUN, AND WAIT FOR THE NIGHT YOU BET YOUR LIFE THAT YOU CAN OPERATE IT WITHOUT FAULT, AND LIVE TO TELL ABOUT IT.

TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.

Classes and man on man competition (even just a few friends and some clay pigeons set 3' apart is good fun. Taking ropes and hanging some plastic milk jugs full of water, then start them swinging, turn and fire against a timer will improve your skill level. We used to put up silhouette hostages just in front of the jugs to make it more interesting. ((Slugs or 00, how well do you know your pattern?)) ). These will show you your strengths and weaknesses. With a weakness, ask a person that you respect to take a look and make a few suggestions so you can improve. Do not keep practicing failure.

[baltz526]

Inside a home a load of 1 1/4oz of #2 or BB lead goose loads is going to kill very effectively. The wound will have the look of having a granade go off in the flesh. Depending on what the person was wearing, heavy leather jacket, Tshirt or kevlar. Pattern is very controlable with heavy goose loads and a human has little chance of surviving a 40yrd head shot let alone any inside the house hits. My house gun is a 9mm and a good flashlight

[Rampant_Colt]

baltz526 Inside a home a load of 1 1/4oz of #2 or BB lead goose loads is going to kill very effectively. The wound will have the look of having a granade go off in the flesh. Depending on what the person was wearing, heavy leather jacket, Tshirt or kevlar. Pattern is very controlable with heavy goose loads and a human has little chance of surviving a 40yrd head shot let alone any inside the house hits. My house gun is a 9mm and a good flashlight

It must be true 'cause he read it on teh intranets!

[Bill DeShivs]

I have seen birdshot blow an arm off at close range, and a lung out at 8 feet.

[RoscoeC]

Good one, Old Wanderer, and right on.

Can you post some links to news stories about this scenario actually happening?

http://www.wyff4.com/r/23656161/detail.html
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2010/05/...ort_house.html
http://www.buffalonews.com/incoming/article38242.ece
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf...ife_after.html

The results of a very cursory search.

Happens all the time, doesn't it? Agreed, it seems to happen more often in areas where folks don't have the means to be armed, or where they are legally prohibited from being armed. It can happen in affluent neighborhoods too.

All I am trying to say is don't be complacent. It DOES happen. Doesn't it make sense to be prepared? I mean the fact is the percentage of us that will ever use a weapon in self defense is very small, but we prepare for what we perceive may be a threat. Don't be unprepared for a threat just because you think it only happens to everyone else.

[baltz526]

Quote:
baltz526 Inside a home a load of 1 1/4oz of #2 or BB lead goose loads is going to kill very effectively. The wound will have the look of having a granade go off in the flesh. Depending on what the person was wearing, heavy leather jacket, Tshirt or kevlar. Pattern is very controlable with heavy goose loads and a human has little chance of surviving a 40yrd head shot let alone any inside the house hits. My house gun is a 9mm and a good flashlight


It must be true 'cause he read it on teh intranets!

Facts of life. Do you know how many pellets will hit a goose at 40yds and what the penetration of these will be? I have counted 21 hits in a goose at 60yards using a load of #2 steel shot that had 118 total pellets. Do you think your skull will survive a 40yd pattern with this type of pellet impact count? Lead will penetrate much better with much more energy. So just think about 20 BB sized lead pellets hitting a skull at 800fps, Do you think this would be a survivable head injury?

[bestbod85]

"In a home defense situation, birdshot has a very real place"


Case in point:
Did VP Cheney have a hunting accident while hunting birds? The poor b@$t@rd hit survived a shot to the head and chest with birdshot (not sure the #). Granted it was at 30yrds but the victim was 78yrs old and didn't lose consciousness. If it can not kill someone with one foot in the grave, maybe it won't be that effective on a drug fueled nut.

[oneounceload]

At living room distances, pretty much all shotgun rounds will either still be in the wad, or barely starting to shed the wad...

However, the energy imparted will be based on those small pellets, not the load as one mass, therefore the energy dump will be much less than using the same weight load with bigger pellets.

As to the comments about 75 yards away.......that is not SD distances, and if you TRULY think you'll need a gun for that range, a rifle would be the norm. I agree, though, that fantasy/video game land is where that thinking belongs

[hardworker]

I am fully confident that a load of high power no. 6 will be adequate for HD.

[TylerD45ACP]

Birdshot is for birds thats why its called birshot. Buckshot is for the people trying to hurt you or your family. I wouldnt go lower than #1Buck but would stick to 12 pellet 00Buck 2 3/4 as my go to rounds.

[cdutton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSOWp...eature=related

Let this break all birdshot myths, both for wall penetration and tissue damage.

Guys, birdshot is no joke real real close, we're talking under ten yards. Yes, it could kill someone. But there's also the chance that it won't kill the person.

Now, seeing as either birdshot or buck will penetrate a wall, I prefer 00 buck for inside shots, or outdoor shots 25yds and under. I live on fifty acres, so as Roscoe stated, there's a very real chance of me taking some rounds from distances greater than 25 yards from outdoors.

If that were to happen, I'm not going to run back to the closet, change weapons, restock my pockets with ammo, and try to re-acquire the target, all without getting popped myself.

Instead of that nonsense, I'm going to duck back, load up some slugs, and tag the perp. Were this a residential setting, I'd probably still do the same, because lethal force is authorized in self defense OR defense of human life.

Howerever, I ain't dumb enough to pop off some slugs into little kristinas's house because A bad guy is shooting from their garden. Tactics, gentleman, tactics.

Situation dictates, right?

And how about common effing sense.

[mathman]

OK...so once again...it's really simple: BIRDSHOT FOR BIRDIES AND BUCKSHOT FOR SELF DEFENSE. Personally, I don't really care too much what y'all use...but if you want MAXIMUM effect, use buckshot (or slugs if the situation dictates).

[NightSleeper]

words of wisdom to live by: bird shot is for birds, buckshot is for 2-legged preditors.

but if you prefer birdshot for the 'safety' factor ... go for it. Just hope that the perp is close by and you don't miss with the first shot.

[NightSleeper]

Did VP Cheney have a hunting accident while hunting birds? The poor b@$t@rd hit survived a shot to the head and chest with birdshot (not sure the #). Granted it was at 30yrds but the victim was 78yrs old and didn't lose consciousness.

They were grouse hunting, so probably shot size 7 1/2 to 8. And he was using a 28-gauge, if I remember correctly.

You were right to point this out, but there's a big difference between what birdshot will do at 30 yards vs. 10 feet.

I still agree though, birdshot is best left for the birds.