Home Defense Strategy Revisited

acmax2k · July 11, 2004, 04:10 PM

Hello All-

This is my first post on The Firing Line and I'd like to solicit your opinion. Sorry if this rehashes past threads.

The recent addition of twin daughters to our household has forced me to seriously overhaul my home defense plans. In a nutshell, my previous plan (before children) was a static safe room defense, where I could "entertain" uninvited guests at the bedroom door as they came to the end of the hall. The classic "Fatal Funnel" effect.

Now, digging in and sending gratuitous amounts of buckshot downrange is no longer acceptable as my children are at the other end of the hall. Needless to say, overpenetration is now a PARAMOUNT concern. My ready service guns I keep in the bedroom are currently an 18" 870 12 GA loaded with #4 Buckshot and a 1911 .45 with several spare 8 rd mags (230 grain +P Corbons).

I have been researching overpenetration and now it seems many folks are leaning towards 5.56mm filling a CQB role as overpenetration is seemingly not the problem with this round it was once thought to be. I'm having some issues with the thought of pulling the AR 15 out of the locker and putting it by the bed. So, is the 5.56 overpenetration issue real or hype? (Clarification: When I say overpenetration, I mean both soft tissue targets and common building materials)

Denny Hansen · July 11, 2004, 04:29 PM

Welcome to TFL acmax.

First, almost anything can "overpenterate" common interior building construction, including .22 Long Rifle projectiles. With that said, .223 has less chance of leaving soft tissue than most pistol rounds. The 870 you have for HD already, however, is hard to beat for a short-range stopper. Some opt for the old myth that birdshot will not overpenetrate. My tests have shown time and again that it will defeat common drywall with the added negative effect that there is a lot more lead in the air on the other side of a wall. Rules 2 and 4 are paramount here.

In a bad situation it may be very hard to get to your daughters room and then retreat back to your bedroom. Instead, you may want to consider putting a good, solid core door on the girls room and going to them. Keep a charged cell phone in their room to call for assistance. From your post I surmise that your daughters are still infants. You can keep a loaded long gun on a shelf they can not reach until they get a little older. When they do get older, you many consider keeping a Condition Four weapon in their room and the ammunition for it in your room.

Hope this helps a bit.

Denny

KSFreeman · July 11, 2004, 05:38 PM

Welcome to TFL, new friend.

Have you considered hardening your daughters' rooms? Perhaps bookcases or the like? Do the girls know what to do during an intruder drill? Moving your bed to change angle?

To me, IMHO, seems more of a software problem as Denny sez overpenetration can happen with any tool.

BTW, spent some time down your way as a young man. Good times, hot chicks in cut off blue jeans drinking beer from a can. [KSFreeman singing] Memories, la la la, something or other . . .

Quartus · July 11, 2004, 07:35 PM

Welcome to TFL! And congratultions on "The recent addition of twin daughters"

And, HELLO? Doesn't that suggest to you other two gentlemen that perhaps this "recent addition" might not be quite ready for a cell phone? That maybe they might not yet be expected to "what to do during an intruder drill". Perhaps it a bit much to think they might be able to move their bed? I know some cribs have wheels, but you still gotta at LEAST be able to get out of the thing by yourself!

acmax2k, maybe you can tell us a little more about your recent addition. Am I off base? Or are these other gentlemen a bit slow tonight?

I second the motion about a good solid core door. If you own the place, do it. Better fire resistance, too. Also consider adding a layer of OSB to the wall, and then cover it over with drywall. I'm pretty sure that will stop buckshot or 5.56

Denny Hansen · July 11, 2004, 08:01 PM

Quartus-
No you are not off base at all, and I'm really not all that slow. If you go back and actually read my post you'll see that I did indeed believe his daughters were newborns and that acmax2k go to them in an emergency. Since he's old enough how to find this board, I'd almost be willing to bet that he can use the stashed cell phone.

Denny

acmax2k · July 11, 2004, 08:16 PM

Hello and thanks for the responses. Actually, my fault for not clarifying some more. The girls are 14 months old, so we're still trying to master the whole "eat your peas" routine......

They are still confined to cribs. I actually think this is an advantage in my case. This is one less variable having to guess where they are in the room. The cribs are on the wall furthest from the door, and any stray rounds fired from the hall (would essentially have to travel diagonally to head in thier direction) would be passing through the maximum amount of walls (hall, bathroom, bedroom) before reaching their room.

Some excellent ideas on strenghtening the walls/room and door. My wife has been on my case about some more storage in the room and a few well placed 6 foot shelf units with something to augment the back of the units would be a great idea. Might help my situation and get her off my case at the same time.

KSFreeman-Happy to hear you got to mingle with some of the locals. As you know, it's blazing hot down here this time of year. All those girls on the beach make for quite a distraction as you're trying to make your way down the highway

Quartus · July 11, 2004, 08:35 PM

My bad, Denny. Too fast reading. Sometimes that's a good thing, though. I had also missed KS's singing.

Wish I had missed it the second time, too!

Quote:

Since he's old enough how to find this board, I'd almost be willing to bet that he can use the stashed cell phone.

Hmm... Well, maybe.....

Quote:

a few well placed 6 foot shelf units

Sadly, most of the pre-fab units have pretty flimsy backs. If the sides, top, and bottom are solid, you could add that OSB to the backs. They're going to be pretty heavy, though. Are you handy with tools? Pre-drill the OSB - it's tough stuff. I've been using decking screws for a lot of projects. They're tougher than drywall screws and easier to use with a screw gun or a drill than standard wood screws.

FrankDrebin · July 11, 2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure that will stop buckshot or 5.56

I don't think a layer of OSB and two layers of half-inch drywall would stop a .223 Remington round....

LAK · July 12, 2004, 02:00 AM

I would consider ways of extending the difficulty of anyone's forced entry into the whole home. This does not have to be extremely expensive, but obviously depends on your resources.

The goal is to make it impossible for anyone to gain entry without making alot of noise, and enough resistance that you have a minute or so to realize what is going on, and meet the visitors before they get between you and your children. In such a case, you will need not worry about over-penetration - and a long gun will likely be decisive very quickly.

You can wire up some powerful lighting that will radiate from your chosen defensive area towards the areas of possible entry with the switches mounted in the hallway or bedrooms. Thus anyone approaching your critical area has strong lighting directed at them and you have a clear view while being in relative darkness of shadow at least.

fyrestarter · July 12, 2004, 03:15 AM

Stopping ingress is the first step. My home has a solid oak front door, an all steel side door, and a double walled glass sliding door in the back. No one is coming in the front or the side. If an intruder decides to "waltz" in the back door, I'm pretty sure I'd hear the glass shattering. I don't anticipate Carlos the Jackal coming armed with glasscutters. If he decides to go through the front windows, he'll trip over the couch in front of them. A 150 pound crackhead tripping over an Ethan Allan davenport and landing on a hardwood floor makes a hell of a racket.

Let's assume for a moment he successfully navigates around the furniture in the dark. To get into my bedroom, he'd have to kick down a locked door. And there'd he be met with a Ruger .357 in my strong hand, and a Colt .45 in my weak.

I'm lucky, I suppose, I don't have anyone else in the house to worry about, whether it be concerns regarding penetration or any other safety issues.

Regarding cell phones: I'll call someone AFTER the perp is incapacitated, not before. Someone breaks into my house, I'm not exactly looking to press charges.

My previous setup consisted of a Ruger 10/22 with the stock and barrel chopped down, a Surefire rigged up to the forearm and a thirty-round mag loaded with CCI hollow points. Why a .22? I didn't want to wake the neighbors

Any .45 · July 12, 2004, 08:48 AM

First congratulations, second have you ever heard a gun go off indoors without ear protection, very loud, very damaging to adult ears, imagine what it would do to 14 month old ears, now do what everyone else recommended, then invest in a Katana, keep the handgun close, if you catch the sucker up close a downward strike should take care of him, the handgun is just in case he has one and you can't get close or he decides to run then you "shoot him in the leg".

Texian Pistolero · July 12, 2004, 10:14 AM

You might consider going to pump shotgun with heavy BIRD shot.

Findg place in country and do your OWN testing on two thicknesses of drywall.

Your task set, if thing go bump in the night is:

secure weapon
secure babies
protect against threat

In the best scenario, you MUST get your wife into the game, as a serious planner and participant in IAD's, (immediate action drills)

You n=eed to do "what if", scenarios, and try to find ways to solve. At first, you will come up empty handed a lot, if you are honest. Don't force magical conclusions. In time, you will start coming up with best solutions, that are unique to your situation, that nobody can tell you on a website.

An aggressive dog (even small) solves MANY problems.

Work in fire, flood, tornado scenarios as part of your SOP's.

Initially, you are protect against threat, and your wife secures babies. Get the drill down, then switch off for practice. When the front door splinters, she may be close to the shotgun and you close to the cribs.

Quartus · July 12, 2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

I don't think a layer of OSB and two layers of half-inch drywall would stop a .223 Remington round....

Frank, a few months ago I'd have agreed with you, and then some rotten individual posted a link to some tests that were done on the subject.

http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html

The conclusion was hard for me to accept, but the data seems to be there to support it. 5.56 breaks up pretty quickly when it hits anything hard, and rarely penetrates a standard wall.

And you might be surprised at how tough OSB is. It makes plywood look downright WIMPY.

acmax2k · July 12, 2004, 05:39 PM

Again, some very good food for thought. I think I've taken good steps to making the entry into the house itself difficult. My alarm system is 2 large dogs who sleep in the house at night, and if they give me 30 seconds of advanced warning, I can make it to my goodie locker and have a selection of weapons, then round the family up and dig into an ideal (as ideal as it gets) defensive position.

I have actually given thought to hearing damage w/ respect to a gun battle indoors. However, given the choice of suffering some hearing damage or my family and me becoming a group of corpses, I'll be consulting an audiologist.

Quartus · July 13, 2004, 12:10 PM

Quote:

However, given the choice of suffering some hearing damage or my family and me becoming a group of corpses, I'll be consulting an audiologist.

Sensible choice!

I like your alarm system - I think it's the best one going. And the best ones can do more than alarm - they can deter, and in worst case, they can delay. In best case, they can end the threat.

If you own the place, don't overlook your windows. When I own again, I'll be installing hurricane glass as quickly as the budget permits.

acmax2k · July 19, 2004, 03:38 PM

No matter how you feel about the debate, I realize that the advocates of 5.56mm for home defense don't advocate the use FMJ ammo for that purpose. Below are some good examples why. The first pic is a "glancing" shot into our target stand. As you can see, a perfectly strait hole is dilled with no signs of bellet deceleration or deformation. The second pic is a 5.56 entrance hole in the target stand leg. Unfortunately, my camera ran out of memory before I could get a pic of the exit hole, but no matter. The holes are exactly the same diameter, in an exact stait line. Again, no signs of deformation or deceleration. The target stand material is Southern Pine 2x2 and the ammo was common 55 grain FMJ 5.56mm. They were shot from either (can't be sure which one) a Mini 14 or Bushmaster XM177 (10.5 in barrel) at a distance of 100 yards.

Quartus · July 19, 2004, 04:39 PM

Interesting photos. I've seen similar results in sheet metal, some of it fairly thick. There's clearly a big difference in penetration depending on the material.

One thing that sticks out at me, though, is that these were shot at 100 yards, where velocity has fallen off some. Hmmm. Not much though.

I dunno! Gonna have to do some tests myself!

(Hey, any excuse is a good excuse for shooting, right?)

DiN BLiX · July 23, 2004, 06:49 PM

you could go a less lethal option like been bag rounds for Ur shotty. Glaser safty slugs might be a better option than corbon +P in ur .45, but im not sure their effect on drywall. i like the katana idea but unfortuanitly, in untrained hands they are more dangerous to the weilder, not the attacker ( it is a 3.5 foot 6 pound razor blade from tip to hilt) and a REAL katana will run you anywhere from 5 to 25 thousand dollars! (the junk in martial arts supply catolog just wont cut it, literally).

acmax2k · July 23, 2004, 07:05 PM

Even if I was comfortable with the idea of sword fighting, which I am not (I am exceedingly comfortable with an 870 and 1911, however) I don't have room to swing it in my hallway. But, the thought of a naked 6 foot man wielding a sword at 3 AM would have disturbing psychological effects on an intruder.

Might look funny on the police report.

July 11, 2004, 04:10 PM	#1
acmax2k Junior Member Join Date: July 10, 2004 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 13	Home Defense Strategy Revisited Hello All- This is my first post on The Firing Line and I'd like to solicit your opinion. Sorry if this rehashes past threads. The recent addition of twin daughters to our household has forced me to seriously overhaul my home defense plans. In a nutshell, my previous plan (before children) was a static safe room defense, where I could "entertain" uninvited guests at the bedroom door as they came to the end of the hall. The classic "Fatal Funnel" effect. Now, digging in and sending gratuitous amounts of buckshot downrange is no longer acceptable as my children are at the other end of the hall. Needless to say, overpenetration is now a PARAMOUNT concern. My ready service guns I keep in the bedroom are currently an 18" 870 12 GA loaded with #4 Buckshot and a 1911 .45 with several spare 8 rd mags (230 grain +P Corbons). I have been researching overpenetration and now it seems many folks are leaning towards 5.56mm filling a CQB role as overpenetration is seemingly not the problem with this round it was once thought to be. I'm having some issues with the thought of pulling the AR 15 out of the locker and putting it by the bed. So, is the 5.56 overpenetration issue real or hype? (Clarification: When I say overpenetration, I mean both soft tissue targets and common building materials)

July 11, 2004, 04:29 PM	#2
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Welcome to TFL acmax. First, almost anything can "overpenterate" common interior building construction, including .22 Long Rifle projectiles. With that said, .223 has less chance of leaving soft tissue than most pistol rounds. The 870 you have for HD already, however, is hard to beat for a short-range stopper. Some opt for the old myth that birdshot will not overpenetrate. My tests have shown time and again that it will defeat common drywall with the added negative effect that there is a lot more lead in the air on the other side of a wall. Rules 2 and 4 are paramount here. In a bad situation it may be very hard to get to your daughters room and then retreat back to your bedroom. Instead, you may want to consider putting a good, solid core door on the girls room and going to them. Keep a charged cell phone in their room to call for assistance. From your post I surmise that your daughters are still infants. You can keep a loaded long gun on a shelf they can not reach until they get a little older. When they do get older, you many consider keeping a Condition Four weapon in their room and the ammunition for it in your room. Hope this helps a bit. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

July 11, 2004, 05:38 PM	#3
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Welcome to TFL, new friend. Have you considered hardening your daughters' rooms? Perhaps bookcases or the like? Do the girls know what to do during an intruder drill? Moving your bed to change angle? To me, IMHO, seems more of a software problem as Denny sez overpenetration can happen with any tool. BTW, spent some time down your way as a young man. Good times, hot chicks in cut off blue jeans drinking beer from a can. [KSFreeman singing] Memories, la la la, something or other . . . __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

July 11, 2004, 08:01 PM	#5
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Quartus- No you are not off base at all, and I'm really not all that slow. If you go back and actually read my post you'll see that I did indeed believe his daughters were newborns and that acmax2k go to them in an emergency. Since he's old enough how to find this board, I'd almost be willing to bet that he can use the stashed cell phone. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

July 12, 2004, 03:15 AM	#10
fyrestarter Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2004 Posts: 323	Stopping ingress is the first step. My home has a solid oak front door, an all steel side door, and a double walled glass sliding door in the back. No one is coming in the front or the side. If an intruder decides to "waltz" in the back door, I'm pretty sure I'd hear the glass shattering. I don't anticipate Carlos the Jackal coming armed with glasscutters. If he decides to go through the front windows, he'll trip over the couch in front of them. A 150 pound crackhead tripping over an Ethan Allan davenport and landing on a hardwood floor makes a hell of a racket. Let's assume for a moment he successfully navigates around the furniture in the dark. To get into my bedroom, he'd have to kick down a locked door. And there'd he be met with a Ruger .357 in my strong hand, and a Colt .45 in my weak. I'm lucky, I suppose, I don't have anyone else in the house to worry about, whether it be concerns regarding penetration or any other safety issues. Regarding cell phones: I'll call someone AFTER the perp is incapacitated, not before. Someone breaks into my house, I'm not exactly looking to press charges. My previous setup consisted of a Ruger 10/22 with the stock and barrel chopped down, a Surefire rigged up to the forearm and a thirty-round mag loaded with CCI hollow points. Why a .22? I didn't want to wake the neighbors __________________ "Get yourself a Glock and lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol." --Sam Gerard "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." --Thomas Jefferson

July 11, 2004, 07:35 PM	#4
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Welcome to TFL! And congratultions on "The recent addition of twin daughters" And, HELLO? Doesn't that suggest to you other two gentlemen that perhaps this "recent addition" might not be quite ready for a cell phone? That maybe they might not yet be expected to "what to do during an intruder drill". Perhaps it a bit much to think they might be able to move their bed? I know some cribs have wheels, but you still gotta at LEAST be able to get out of the thing by yourself! acmax2k, maybe you can tell us a little more about your recent addition. Am I off base? Or are these other gentlemen a bit slow tonight? I second the motion about a good solid core door. If you own the place, do it. Better fire resistance, too. Also consider adding a layer of OSB to the wall, and then cover it over with drywall. I'm pretty sure that will stop buckshot or 5.56 __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

July 11, 2004, 08:16 PM	#6
acmax2k Junior Member Join Date: July 10, 2004 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 13	Hello and thanks for the responses. Actually, my fault for not clarifying some more. The girls are 14 months old, so we're still trying to master the whole "eat your peas" routine...... They are still confined to cribs. I actually think this is an advantage in my case. This is one less variable having to guess where they are in the room. The cribs are on the wall furthest from the door, and any stray rounds fired from the hall (would essentially have to travel diagonally to head in thier direction) would be passing through the maximum amount of walls (hall, bathroom, bedroom) before reaching their room. Some excellent ideas on strenghtening the walls/room and door. My wife has been on my case about some more storage in the room and a few well placed 6 foot shelf units with something to augment the back of the units would be a great idea. Might help my situation and get her off my case at the same time. KSFreeman-Happy to hear you got to mingle with some of the locals. As you know, it's blazing hot down here this time of year. All those girls on the beach make for quite a distraction as you're trying to make your way down the highway

July 12, 2004, 02:00 AM	#9
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	I would consider ways of extending the difficulty of anyone's forced entry into the whole home. This does not have to be extremely expensive, but obviously depends on your resources. The goal is to make it impossible for anyone to gain entry without making alot of noise, and enough resistance that you have a minute or so to realize what is going on, and meet the visitors before they get between you and your children. In such a case, you will need not worry about over-penetration - and a long gun will likely be decisive very quickly. You can wire up some powerful lighting that will radiate from your chosen defensive area towards the areas of possible entry with the switches mounted in the hallway or bedrooms. Thus anyone approaching your critical area has strong lighting directed at them and you have a clear view while being in relative darkness of shadow at least.

July 12, 2004, 08:48 AM	#11
Any .45 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2004 Location: SW FLORIDA, USA Posts: 604	First congratulations, second have you ever heard a gun go off indoors without ear protection, very loud, very damaging to adult ears, imagine what it would do to 14 month old ears, now do what everyone else recommended, then invest in a Katana, keep the handgun close, if you catch the sucker up close a downward strike should take care of him, the handgun is just in case he has one and you can't get close or he decides to run then you "shoot him in the leg". __________________ Foster and polish The warior spirit While serving in the world; Illuminate the path According to your inner light" "Spring forth from the Great Earth; Billow like Great Waves; Stand like a tree, sit like a rock; Use One to strike All. Learn and forget! " "At the instant A warrior Confronts a foe, All things Come into focus" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) Founder of Aikido

July 12, 2004, 10:14 AM	#12
Texian Pistolero Member Join Date: June 29, 2004 Posts: 22	You might consider going to pump shotgun with heavy BIRD shot. Findg place in country and do your OWN testing on two thicknesses of drywall. Your task set, if thing go bump in the night is: secure weapon secure babies protect against threat In the best scenario, you MUST get your wife into the game, as a serious planner and participant in IAD's, (immediate action drills) You n=eed to do "what if", scenarios, and try to find ways to solve. At first, you will come up empty handed a lot, if you are honest. Don't force magical conclusions. In time, you will start coming up with best solutions, that are unique to your situation, that nobody can tell you on a website. An aggressive dog (even small) solves MANY problems. Work in fire, flood, tornado scenarios as part of your SOP's. Initially, you are protect against threat, and your wife secures babies. Get the drill down, then switch off for practice. When the front door splinters, she may be close to the shotgun and you close to the cribs.

July 12, 2004, 05:39 PM	#14
acmax2k Junior Member Join Date: July 10, 2004 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 13	Again, some very good food for thought. I think I've taken good steps to making the entry into the house itself difficult. My alarm system is 2 large dogs who sleep in the house at night, and if they give me 30 seconds of advanced warning, I can make it to my goodie locker and have a selection of weapons, then round the family up and dig into an ideal (as ideal as it gets) defensive position. I have actually given thought to hearing damage w/ respect to a gun battle indoors. However, given the choice of suffering some hearing damage or my family and me becoming a group of corpses, I'll be consulting an audiologist.

July 19, 2004, 04:39 PM	#17
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Interesting photos. I've seen similar results in sheet metal, some of it fairly thick. There's clearly a big difference in penetration depending on the material. One thing that sticks out at me, though, is that these were shot at 100 yards, where velocity has fallen off some. Hmmm. Not much though. I dunno! Gonna have to do some tests myself! (Hey, any excuse is a good excuse for shooting, right?) __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

July 23, 2004, 06:49 PM	#18
DiN BLiX Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 35	you could go a less lethal option like been bag rounds for Ur shotty. Glaser safty slugs might be a better option than corbon +P in ur .45, but im not sure their effect on drywall. i like the katana idea but unfortuanitly, in untrained hands they are more dangerous to the weilder, not the attacker ( it is a 3.5 foot 6 pound razor blade from tip to hilt) and a REAL katana will run you anywhere from 5 to 25 thousand dollars! (the junk in martial arts supply catolog just wont cut it, literally).

July 23, 2004, 07:05 PM	#19
acmax2k Junior Member Join Date: July 10, 2004 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 13	Even if I was comfortable with the idea of sword fighting, which I am not (I am exceedingly comfortable with an 870 and 1911, however) I don't have room to swing it in my hallway. But, the thought of a naked 6 foot man wielding a sword at 3 AM would have disturbing psychological effects on an intruder. Might look funny on the police report.