Hurricane Irma = Second Amendment appears to go out the window in US Virgin Islands?

[TXAZ]

I read this and thought "Really?" I looked for the order but didn't find it, but the article indicates the governor believes the National Guard may need the guns and ammo: "U.S. Virgin Islands Gov. Kenneth Mapp signed an emergency order allowing the seizure of private guns, ammunition, explosives and property the National Guard may need to respond to Hurricane Irma."

Would love to hear Frank and the other legal eagles discuss the Second Amendment vs. a hurricane approaching / disaster prep.

US Virgin Islands Governor Mapp seizing guns ahead of Hurricane Irma


I don't see a snowball's chance in Texas, and don't understand the logic (or legality) from the USVI governor.

[spacemanspiff]

Is the National Guard planning on shooting the Hurricane?

[Aguila Blanca]

What could the National Guard possibly do with a black powder, 1851 Colt revolver close during a hurricane?

That order has to be unconstitutional (I think), but the Supreme Court won't have a chance to say so until several years down the road. This is why we don't like permits and FOIDs (or is it FOICs?).

Tommy Lee Jones had the right idea: https://youtu.be/77ZuwtX3B80?t=10

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by TXAZ

I looked for the order but didn't find it,

http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/up...NATL-GUARD.pdf


Do the VI have the same Constitutional Rights and protections as US Citizens?

What about the Federal Law that was passed in 2006 that prohibits the confiscation of legal firearms from law-abiding citizens during states of emergency? Does the VI have this legal protection as well?

[TXAZ]

Thanks for the link Steve. There it is in black and white.

[Doyle]

It looks like this order is worded so as not to be a "confiscation" but a "commandeering".

[rickyrick]

I thought this was internet fakery but it keeps coming up.
Has anyone verified the statutes referred to in the document?

[OldMarksman]

Second Amendment in the Virgin Islands? Really?

If the Bill of Rights applied in the Virgin islands, this would be more of a Fifth Amendment issue than a Second Amendment issue.

But the Bill of Rights originally limited the authority of the Federal Government. Later, through the Incorporation Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment, some parts of the BoR were extended to limit the power of state governments.

The USVI, an unincorporated and organized territory, is governed under the provisions of the Revised Organic Act of the Virgin Islands, enacted in 1954.

The territory has no constitution.

The islands were previously called the Danish West Indies, and were acquired from Denmark in 1916.

[ShootistPRS]

As a US territory the US Virgin Islands have US National parks and the citizens are considered US citizens since 1927. They submitted a constitution to the US congress but it was not accepted and returned for revision but has not been resubmitted. They do have a bill of rights but I have never seen a copy of it. Beyond that, I have no knowledge of their National government.

[rebs]

hummmm The NG must plan on using fire power against the hurricane ?

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by rebs

hummmm The NG must plan on using fire power against the hurricane ?

Maybe they were thinking of a study in the 60's showing that using REAL firepower, aka Hydrogen Bomb, exploded inside a hurricane eye, would seriously diminish the storm, scaled down for USVI?
I believe Popular Science did an article on it.

[DaleA]

Hurricanes and nukes...Here's an article about it on the 'National Geographic ' page:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...clear-weapons/
Spoiler Alert: It doesn't seem practical.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by DaleA

Hurricanes and nukes...Here's an article about it on the 'National Geographic ' page:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...clear-weapons/
Spoiler Alert: It doesn't seem practical.

If I remember right, the 'dispersal of radiation' kinda made it a bad idea back then.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, using federal funds to confiscate or disarm lawful owners would be in violation of federal law: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr5013/text

I'm skeptical the USVI is not relying heavily on federal funds as a territory. I'm also 100% certain the NRA is salivating at the prospect of the USVI attempting to comandeer legally owned firearms given their legislative and litigation success after Katrina.

[Mike38]

Around 30 minutes ago, the Governor of the USVI was interviewed via telephone by Tucker Carlson of Fox News. The Governor was asked no less than 3 times to clarify this situation. He said that there is no way he legally can, nor does he want to, confiscate firearms and / or ammunition from citizens of the USVI. After the interview, it seemed to me that Tucker Carlson had his doubts the Governor was speaking the truth just then, so take this for what it's worth.

[Aguila Blanca]

Here's a link to a copy of the actual order: http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/up...NATL-GUARD.pdf

... the Adjutant General is authorized and directed to seize arms, ammunition, explosives, incendiary material and any other property that may be required by the military forces for the performance of this emergency mission, in accordance with the rules of force promulgated by the Virgin Islands National Guard and approved by the Virgin Islands Department of Justice.

The language of the order (if that purported copy floating around on-line is a genuine facsimile of the actual order) seems to very clearly call for confiscating ("seize" does not carry with it any connotation of taking by eminent domain) arms and ammunition. I wonder how the governor thinks he can tell Tucker Carlson he has no authority to order that when he just ordered that. Is he acknowledging that he issued an unlawful order?

[rickyrick]

That's kinda why I think the order is a fake. Everyone is posting the link from the Daily Caller... seems the governmental website would post such an order on its page.

[rickyrick]

I guess because of the storm the website for the governor is down... I checked

[dreaming]

The order isn't fake, but it isn't about confiscating firearms from folk. Tucker Carlson interviewed the Governor of the U.S. Virgin Islands and I have read the order which was posted. It empowers the National Guard to obtain firearms from retailers, if they are needed in the emergency, without going through regular purchasing channels. The government must still pay for the weapons. Resident's firearms are not being taken.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by dreaming

The order isn't fake, but it isn't about confiscating firearms from folk. Tucker Carlson interviewed the Governor of the U.S. Virgin Islands and I have read the order which was posted. It empowers the National Guard to obtain firearms from retailers, if they are needed in the emergency, without going through regular purchasing channels. The government must still pay for the weapons. Resident's firearms are not being taken.

That may be what you think it means, and it may even be what it's supposed to mean, but on its face that's not what it says. However, it references Title 23, Section 1520, Virgin Islands Code. Without knowing what that section of the VI Code says, we don't know what the order actually does and doesn't authorize.

Note that the word "retailers" does not appear anywhere in the order.

[Tom Servo]

The USVI, an unincorporated and organized territory, is governed under the provisions of the Revised Organic Act of the Virgin Islands, enacted in 1954.

To follow up, the US Constitution and its applicability in the USVI is something of a gray area. A series of SCOTUS decisions known as the Insular Cases will likely be used to defend the Governor's actions. It's not as clear-cut as the NRA case against New Orleans in 2006.

[Paul B.]

Surely the NG in the VI have their issued M16 rifles, right? Why would they need any civilian firearms? Definitely sounds like confiscation to me.
Paul B.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It's not as clear-cut as the NRA case against New Orleans in 2006.

Well, they haven't identified any parties with standing yet. So that's a big hurdle.

[rickyrick]

On the surface, a militia not under the purview of the US Constitution but has governmental authority sounds pretty ominous to me... especially one ready to disarm citizens.

[hdwhit]

Bartholomew Roberts wrote:
Well, using federal funds to confiscate or disarm lawful owners would be in violation of federal law:

No. Not under the statute you cited. That statute derives its authority from the Second Amendment which does not exist in the Virgin Islands.