Webley 455 "shaved" cylinder

[cjwils]

Not sure whether to post in the revolver forum or the curios and relics forum.

For some reason I have recently had an urge to get a Webley 455 revolver. (Maybe it is because I read Sherlock Holmes stories when I was young, and when Sherlock said "Watson, bring your revolver" he was referring to a Webley.

Anyway, when I look at Webley 455 revolvers on gunbroker and elsewhere, I often see that they have had the cylinder "shaved" to accommodate 45 ACP. What exactly does that mean?

I know that the pressure for the 45 ACP is too high for the old Webley. That is not what I am asking about.

[rgillis]

The cylinder have been shortened and accept moon clips to accommodate the .45acp.

[Jim Watson]

The rim of .455 Webley is about .040" thick, setting the headspace dimension between cylinder and breech.
The rim plus clip of .45 ACP or the rim of .45 AR is about .090".
So the "shaving" amounted to cutting about .050" off the rear face of the cylinder to accept the American ammo.

It is recognizable by the way it cuts into proof marks at the rear edge of the cylinder. Also by toolmarks and lack of finish. They were doing these quickly for surplus sale in the Colonies.

[cjwils]

I have seen photos on gunbroker that show shaved guns and guns for which "shaved" is not mentioned, and the length of the cylinders seems the same to me.

By the way, I might have been wrong about Dr. Watson. A google search indicates that his military service might have been before the Webley.

[Jim Watson]

Hard to eyeball 50 thou in an advertisement.

The Webley was adopted in 1887, the same year A Study in Scarlet came out.

[cjwils]

Can a shaved Webley 455 still shoot 455 ammo without any problem? Any issue with cartridge length if the cartridge is moved forward by 50 thousandths?

[Nakanokalronin]

After searching for my Webley WG below, it's easy to visually spot an unshaved cylinder. Mine has an unshaved cylinder and the easiest way to know is by looking at the back end of it where you drop the rounds into. If the proof marks are still there, it's unshaved. From what I've read you can still shoot 455 in shaved cylinders. As an added note, this WG has one of the smoothest trigger pull I've ever felt.

I bought this one because of Indiana Jones. He uses it in The Last Crusade and The Crystal Skull.

[Jim Watson]

Ah, but will the firing pin reach .050" farther to hit the .455 primer in a shaved cylinder?
I would not count on it.
If I had a shaved Webley, I would load low end .45 Auto Rim.

A friend has a WG with square butt.
I once saw a WS Target with 7 1/2" barrel.
The quality is as good as any Colt or Smith.

[Nakanokalronin]

I don't think hitting the primer would be a problem. It's not like a S&W with a fixed firing pin that only protrudes a small amount past the breach face when fired. The firing pin of the Webley extends into the cylinder chamber when in the down/fired position.

[Mike Irwin]

"From what I've read you can still shoot 455 in shaved cylinders."

No. You can't. At least you can't reliably. I've seen it tried.

Two things happened.

Most of the shots (95%) failed to ignite because the firing pin didn't have enough extension anymore. .05 may not seem like a lot, but it's more than enough to cause ignition problems. If the primer is seated a little high or just flush, you can MAYBE get by. If the primer is seated properly, don't count on it.

The second thing that happened is that the excessive head space allowed the primer to partially pop out of the case, tying the gun up all to hell and back.

If you have a .455 Webley that has been shaved, the solution is easy. Get yourself some .45 Auto Rim cases from Starline.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

"From what I've read you can still shoot 455 in shaved cylinders."

No. You can't. At least you can't reliably. I've seen it tried.

Two things happened.

Most of the shots (95%) failed to ignite because the firing pin didn't have enough extension anymore. .05 may not seem like a lot, but it's more than enough to cause ignition problems. If the primer is seated a little high or just flush, you can MAYBE get by. If the primer is seated properly, don't count on it.

The second thing that happened is that the excessive head space allowed the primer to partially pop out of the case, tying the gun up all to hell and back.

If you have a .455 Webley that has been shaved, the solution is easy. Get yourself some .45 Auto Rim cases from Starline.

This.

Also if you have a shaved Webley, don't shoot commercial 45 ACP ammo in it, especially jacketed ammo. Operating pressure for a Webley is a fraction of 45 ACP pressure. Using standard 45 ACP is like shooting a 455 Webley proof load every shot. It might not blow up right away, but it will shoot loose. Use very light loads with lead bullets.

[Nakanokalronin]

Like I said, I've read of people doing so, but maybe it's a problem. Also there's the standard pressure 45ACP issue. I wanted the exact gun in the IJ movie, plus no headache of what type of ammo to use. Only buying 455 Webley is easy and less of a headache.

[Mike Irwin]

"Like I said, I've read of people doing so, but maybe it's a problem."

And as I said, I've actually seen it tried. And it was a dismal failure.


"Only buying 455 Webley is easy and less of a headache."

Are you in the United States?

.455 Webley ammo has been scarce as hen's teeth for a long time. Unless someone is loading it in the US, the only reliable source I know of is Fiocchi, and when the great Obama ammo harvest hit a few years ago they stopped making it to concentrate on the stuff that was in high demand, 9mm, .45, .38, etc.

OK, SG ammo has some, but Midway and most others are sold out, back ordered, and no estimate on when it will ship.

[Jim Watson]

Buffalo Arms has some Fiocchi.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/455-webl...0-amo455webley

They also have brass listed under .45 Webley .820" long.

[Mike Irwin]

Supply seems to be opening back up, then.

Guy I know picked up an unshaved S&W Mk II around 2009 or so and never could find ammo for it.

He said he was thinking about shaving it, and I said I was thinking about beating him senseless with it. He was joking. I wasn't.

He ended up chucking .45 Auto Rim cases into a lathe and face trimming the rims to the proper thickness.

Worked fine but well over an hour to do 50, he said.

[Mike Irwin]

Jinkies!

Buffalo's price on the .455 Fiocchi is $10 a box more than SGA's!

[OldMarksman]

...when Sherlock said "Watson, bring your revolver" he was referring to a Webley.

The fictional Dr. Watson left the service before the adoption of the Webley.

Look for an Adams Mk III.

Don't shoot it.

[Mike Irwin]

If I'm not mistaken, Sherlock Holmes himself owned a Tranter double action cap and ball revolver.

The Adams Mk III revolver was chambered in .450 Boxer Mk I.

But, Watson was an officer, and at the time, officers in the British army had to purchase their own sidearms, so it's entirely possible that Watson would have owned an early Webley-manufactured solid-frame rimfires or even a Webley-Pryse. A likely possibility would also have been the Webley Royal Irish Constabulary revolver, which was a popular choice with military officers as it was chambered in the military standard .450 Boxer Mk I.

In a book published in the early 2000s, I THINK it was Caleb Carr, Sherlock Holmes' brother Mycroft writes Sherlock and advises him to bring his Chicago Palm Protector pistol to investigate doing most foul.

[44 AMP]

If you have a .455 Webley that has been shaved, the solution is easy. Get yourself some .45 Auto Rim cases from Starline.

If I had never had a "shaved" Webley, I would recommend this, too. However, since I do have personal experience I have to tell you...


THIS DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK!!!!


I have a Webley Mk VI (Mark 6) dated 1917. It has a "barely" shaved cylinder. LESS then most. .45Auto Rim brass WILL NOT WORK, the rim is TOO THICK. Also, it will not work with any full moon clip I have found.

Again, they are too thick, for my gun. It does work fine with S&W HALF MOON clips. (the thin metal 3 round clips).

When the British surplussed the Webleys, they also surplussed ammo. Both the guns and the ammo were sold in the US from the 50s, on.

When the supply of surplus ammo ran out, no more was forthcoming. US makers didn't make any, either. Various distributors and others then "shaved" the cylinders of many Webleys, to allow the use of .45ACP BRASS in clips. The idea was to allow the guns to continue to be used, using commonly available .45acp brass to load Webley level loads in.

Different people did the "shaving" and different guns were shaved in slightly different amounts.

However, the fact that one should NOT USE .45acp AMMO in a Webley was not well communicated, and since .45acp ammo will fit, and fire, many people simply just used it. And many Webleys were destroyed as a result.

Standard .45ACP ammo is loaded to what is, for a Webley, proof level pressure. .455 Webleys are big, they look strong, but they aren't!!

Shooting proof loads through the guns eventually results in them failing. Some well before others. No doubt you can find someone who has been "shootin .45auto through my Webley for 50 years, and no problems!"
And that is true. However, that Webley might go another 50 years with no problems, or it might fail on the very next time it fires a .45acp round!!! (cracked cylinders seem to be the most common failure). There is no way to know.


My gun is barely shaved, and it will fire .455 ammo (I got a box from Hornady some years ago, don't know if they still carry it), and fired 6 rounds. TWO suffered pierced primers. SO I don't shoot .455 in my gun, I shoot .45acp CASES with Webley level loads.

Different guns, shaved a slightly different amount can work fine with ACP brass in clips, or Auto Rim brass, and not fire .455 with any reliability.

My gun won't run with AR brass, rims are too thick. The gun will close, but the cylinder will not turn if I use AR brass.

I have never found a full moon clip that would even allow the gun to close when it was used. And, I quit looking, some time ago. Half moons (S&W, not other brands) do work, and so do some 2rnd clips I got somewhere.

SO, while USUALLY .45AR brass will work in a shaved Webley, its not an "always works" thing. It depends on how much your individual gun was cut. Shaving the cylinders was not done to a uniform standard, and variations do occur.

[Mike Irwin]

"THIS DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK!!!!"

NOTHING "always" works.

But every shaved Webley I've ever seen, and there have been more than a few of them, has accepted .45 Auto Rim cases with no problems.

Sounds like you had one done by a crappy gunsmith.



"When the British surplussed the Webleys, they also surplussed ammo. Both the guns and the ammo were sold in the US from the 50s, on."

Very little .455 Webley ammo came into the United States to accompany the revolvers, and it was quickly used up. And most of what was sold in the United States was Canadian manufactured, NOT British.

Why so little ammo? Because the British had never concentrated on producing much ammunition for their revolves. A "sufficient" officer's load out was 12 rounds -- 6 in the gun, and 6 more in loops.

When World War II kicked off the British didn't have manufacturing capacity enough to supply their need for either .455 or .380 revolver ammunition -- they had to buy enormous amounts from the United States and Canada.

In 1939 troops had to be sent to France with .380 Mk I ammo, even though that round (lead bullet, 200 grains) had been withdrawn from service nearly a decade earlier due to worried about Hague Convention violations.

By the time 1943 rolled around, the British had stopped manufacturing .455 ammunition entirely as the threat of invasion decreased and Enfield and Webley revolves in .380 more or less caught up to the demand.

Once the war ended, there was virtually no .455 ammo left to be surplussed, and .380 ammo production virtually stopped. Production of .455 ammunition in Canada also stopped shortly after the war.

[T. O'Heir]

Shaved so ACP moon clips will fit the cylinder. However, the ACP doesn't use the same bullet as a .455 Webley.
"...NOTHING "always" works...." My plans always work. Not always the way I intended though. snicker.
Oh and Watson was an Army doctor. There was no RAMC(Royal Army Medical Corps) until the Boer War(1899). No coordinated army medical service until 1873. Prior to that it was very much haphazard. No 'Officer' military ranks either. So Watson could have carried any revolver he wanted, provided it was chambered in the current calibre for when he served. No such thing as .455 Webley until 1887. Means it had to be a .450 Adams or .476 Enfield.

[Mike Irwin]

Very true, but the British Army medical officers had all advantages and privileges accorded to an officer, just not the official badge of rank.

Based on Doyle's writings, Watson would have entered the Army right around the time the Army Medical Service was established in 1873.

[44 AMP]

Sounds like you had one done by a crappy gunsmith.

Or, looking at it another way, he took off just enough metal to get it to work, and no more. I would point out that its quite possible the point was to get it to work with ACP brass and a supplied clip.
Possibly, the idea of having it work with 45AR brass wasn't even considered. Auto Rim brass isn't exactly common, either. And it does still fire .455 ammo.

If I remember right, 45Auto Rim brass didn't come out until several years after the 1917s, were in use, and the rim was made as thick as it is, to fill the space in those guns.

[TruthTellers]

OP, Webley's were also made in .38 S&W (yes S&W, not .38 Special) which is a very low pressure cartridge and they were never modified to shoot anything else. Can't say that .38 S&W is common, but it is available, but it'll run you about $30/50 rds. Reloading can drop that to about $9/50 rds.

It's something I've thought about doing myself. I feel that the .38 S&W Webley's will hold their value, if not increase in value because they've not been modified.

[Dufus]

Starline is producing the 455 Webley brass. They just recently started. $105.00 for 250 count.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-...5-Webley-MKII/