February 23, 2018, 07:31 AM | #251 | |
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February 23, 2018, 07:35 AM | #252 | |
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson |
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February 23, 2018, 07:54 AM | #253 |
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Not sarcasm at all, the left can not be in charge of this discussion, we will only get bans and more senseless killings. The right thing to do will not be popular in the lsm but it will be a step in the right direction.
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February 23, 2018, 08:28 AM | #254 | ||
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The idea that in order to stop a teenager who is occupied pumping rounds into other children one would need frequent, very good and extensive training is both implausible and implies a special pleading. Many POs don't get extensive, very good, or extensive training, and we still expect them to function effectively in a substantially more adversarial environment. A firearm is not an extremely complex device; the sense that one can't employ it effectively without special training is disproven regularly by ordinary people with little training. Quote:
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February 23, 2018, 08:37 AM | #255 | |
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To the extent you are obejcting that your ideas are being rejected out of hand, without due consideration. Some of us here have been involved in this debate longer than you’ve been alive. So, while I am sure the ideas seem fresh and new to you, they aren’t new, unknown or unconsidered by me. However, to the extent you think firearms registration is a good idea - the two biggest roadblocks to it are a Supreme Court that doesn’t take the Second Amendment seriously and gun owner privacy concerns. The people preaching expanded background checks know this, yet they don’t do anything to address those concerns. Why do you think that is? You are being propagandized pure and simple. We all feel angry and powerless when we see a needless waste of life. Especially when it feels like there is so little we can do as individuals to change it. Because the entire purpose of government in a democratic schema is to do the things we can’t do as individuals, we often look to it and demand it “do something.” The rationale from the politicians’ side is “Something must be done. This is something. Therefore, this must be done.” The “something” being offered to you by the news media is more expansion of a system already way too dangerous to liberty. For that matter, the NRA’s “arm teachers” is more an appropriation of the same tactic (a pro-gun something to choose) rather than a well-considered solution. Instead of “Well, this is a horrible idea that isn’t working already; but it kind of addresses the same general need and it is something”, we need actual effective solutions - because gun owners least of all want to see these incidents. We’re just as disgusted as anyone else at the tragedy AND we know we’ll be emotiinally bullied and blamed for things we didn’t do on top of it all. Surrendering our rights for a solution that is already failing at a lower level and hoping that this magically fixes our problem or at least stops the bullying shows both a poor understanding of logic and bullies. |
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February 23, 2018, 09:13 AM | #256 | |||
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 23, 2018 at 09:23 AM. |
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February 23, 2018, 09:21 AM | #257 |
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It’s point and shoot when the ranges are close.
Any one can do that |
February 23, 2018, 09:23 AM | #258 | |
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This. This is why I think people should be required to undergo better training.
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February 23, 2018, 09:32 AM | #259 |
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/us/fl...ing/index.html
Waiting outside while teachers ran toward the sound of gunfire and died. Regardless of crappy pay, it seems teachers care more.
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February 23, 2018, 09:38 AM | #260 | ||||||
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It isn't a mere difference in label. "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name." Quote:
That isn't a knock on training and practice, both of which are an asset. Quote:
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Your reaction above illustrates Bartholomew Roberts' observation.
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February 23, 2018, 09:39 AM | #261 | ||
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February 23, 2018, 09:46 AM | #262 | ||
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The police presence didn't work (more accurately, it didn't work until other POs arrived later), but disarmed teachers showed a willingness to defend immediately. You conclude that this supports further gun control. How so?
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February 23, 2018, 10:21 AM | #263 | |||
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No competent instructor is going to claim that no instruction or simply an understanding of basic use is going to adequately prepare them to be effective without harming by standers in a worst case scenario like a school shooting. Quote:
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 23, 2018 at 10:28 AM. |
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February 23, 2018, 10:35 AM | #264 | |||||
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Yes, there is a material difference between a man with a rifle killing children in a closed building, and an infantryman in an opposing armed force. Recognizing this should not unsettle you. Quote:
Why didn't you answer the question about the extensive practice and high quality training received by Nikolas Cruz? Do you now grasp the factual deficiency of your position? Quote:
Commenting on the law competently takes years training and frequent practice. At least that's what some law school professors told me. You shouldn't do it without high quality and extensive preparation. Right?
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February 23, 2018, 10:52 AM | #265 | |||||||
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM. |
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February 23, 2018, 10:56 AM | #266 |
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To my way of thinking you need two things to be effective in an active shooter situation in school. Marksmanship and mind set.
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February 23, 2018, 11:36 AM | #267 | |||||||||||
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I am gratified that you now recognize the difference between a murderer and a combatant. Quote:
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I believe you ignored my final question because you may recognize the weakness in the standard you've set forth. You don't want people who haven't had "high quality training" to exercise a constitutional right, yet you advocate restricting peoples' rights without any "high quality training" to do so. I don't actually think you should be prohibited from advocacy on the issue, because to speak on it is your right, training or not. Similarly, I wouldn't limit your right to defend with arms, your right, training or not. EDIT - I see you came back for the final question, yet may be blind to the irony. I hope the prior paragraph frames it sufficiently.
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February 23, 2018, 11:52 AM | #268 |
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All this conversation on arming teachers is pointless...POINTLESS..because it would be a pyrrhic victory. You should all hope it doesn't come to pass.
Nothing would more completely and finally swing the tide of public opinion overwhelmingly against gun owners than dealing with the actual arming of teachers in schools. Even if it prevented mass shootings. One ND, one accidental or unprovoked fatal shooting, one holstered Sig left in a drawer and found by a student, and we would be worse off than ever. Teachers generally aren't gun people, just like the general public. It's bad enough forcing safe gun practices on the willing. Best to raise the age limit on firearm purchases (but not the use of) to something reasonable, like 21. |
February 23, 2018, 11:54 AM | #269 | |
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Who has proposed forcing teachers to arm?
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February 23, 2018, 12:02 PM | #270 |
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I guess I meant the risks of "incentivizing" teachers to arm, not forcing. As evidenced in the front page of the New York Times this morning (a paper I encourage all of us to read; know your enemy's arguments and all that).
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February 23, 2018, 12:06 PM | #271 | |
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As a card carrying good ole boy, I find this argument disingenuous at best. Whether my brethren and I can effectively defend ourselves is not really the issue. The implication though, is that we pose a danger to ourselves and society at large by having guns. I'm not opposed to basic proficiency and safety training for concealed carry permits, but the idea that I be required to pass some sort of psycological or proficiency testing to simply own guns is without question an infringement of my rights. That the cause of the killing of innocents is ultimately access to guns by law abiding citizens is a straw man that does not address the failure of existing gun control laws. It is not the fault of the tens of millions of Americans who are dismissed as unenlightened rubes because we take our 2A rights and responsibilities seriously.
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February 23, 2018, 12:09 PM | #272 | ||
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Let’s look at how that works. You get your wish. I have a rifle. Maybe it is worth a lot now because it has been banned. Heck, maybe they’ll ban mags too and that stack of $8 PMAGs I am sitting on outperforms my 401k. I sell it to RC20 face to face with no background check. RC20 decides to do something criminal with it. Police come to me and I say “sold it before the law changed. Prove otherwise.” They can prove I didn’t do a background check; but can they prove WHEN I didn’t do a background check? Expanding NICS to all private sales REQUIRES firearms registration or it is a toothless law enforceable only against the criminally stupid. That’s the entire point I’ve been making repeatedly now. Quote:
Also, apropos of nothing, what made you associate “hillbilly and good ol’ boy” with “careless attitude” in your mind? Are the hillbillies you know particularly careless? Got a friend who is a “good ol’ boy?” Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; February 23, 2018 at 12:16 PM. |
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February 23, 2018, 12:19 PM | #273 | |||||||
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Your argument up to this point is that a hobbyists skill level, a civilian mindset, and a reliance on the folksy adage "it's better to be lucky than good," is an adequate defense against an irrational killer who has the advantage of choosing the setting and time of conflict, and more than likely possesses superior weapons. To rebuke this is is to say you believe that no training is necessary to defend yourself, or that you agree that high quality, regular training should be completed if authority figures are to arm themselves in school. Quote:
Here's the exchange: Quote:
This is going in circles. If anyone else is interested in attempting to poke holes in my reasoning they are welcome to do so.
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February 23, 2018, 12:26 PM | #274 |
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Commenting on law? Lol
Twitter seems to just about be given the power to make law. The world hinges on what happens on Twitter. This is getting ridiculous. |
February 23, 2018, 12:37 PM | #275 | |||
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The implication isn't that you are unqualified to discuss legal matters for your lack of training. The suggestion is that applying your own standard for exercise of a person's right to arm made subject to high quality training would leave you unqualified to safely comment on the implications of abridging peoples' civil rights. If you understand the irony of your call for training before exercising a right, why are you here commenting on the law? Or is this standard only for other people?
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