Evaluating self and different pistols

[kmw1954]

Please I do not want this to turn into a discussion about 1911's, this forum is already full of those. Nor do I want this to turn into a caliber war. Thank you!

Over the years I have fired many different 1911 model type pistols and for me they are mostly uncomfortable. Why I don't know. I do shoot them reasonably accurate though. For myself I just have no interest in owning one.

Very recently I have again fired a couple different models that friends have the 1st was a 4.5" barrel 45acp. It was loaded with mild handloads and was shooting at a 10yd target. Again the gun just wasn't comfortable and even with the mild loads seemed to have a heavy recoil and a lot of muzzle rise.

Then this past weekend I again shot another friends 1911 with a 4.5 barrel only this one was chambered in 10mm. Now for some reason I cannot explain, this gun with full loads was much more pleasant to shoot and felt more comfortable. Again I was shooting to 10yds and accuracy was good. The recoil felt no where near as harsh nor was the muzzle rise. I was actually able to bring it back on target pretty quickly.

This same friend also had a 500S&W with him that I was too cowardly to try. One of the range officers shot it and 45min later he was still rubbing his hand. But that is another story but does go to the point that this guy does not load lightly.

So why do you all think I would have such a different perspective of these two particular 1911 guns?

[lechiffre]

It could be a few things

Different cartridges have different recoil impulses.

A ergonomic combination. Flat vs arched mainspring housing. Standerd vs beavertail grip tang. Standars vs undercut trigger guard. Long vs short trigger. Grip pannel shape and material. Grip length. Slide length. Steel vs aluminum frame. Railed (heavier) vs standard.

Shooting stance. Weaver vs isosceles vs target.

How you grip the gun. High ride thumbs foreword vs teacup vs what have you.

Recoil reduction system. Buffer, guide rod, compensator.

To say the least it's a wide world of 1911s out there.

[kmw1954]

I understand the recoil pulses completely. Guess I always believed the 10mm was a harder hitter or again maybe it was the gun. The grip is always two handed, thumbs high and pointed towards the target.

The wife and I shoot two different 45's. Mine is a large frame, metal Witness. Hers is a poly, XD Mod2 4" and yes they feel and shoot different.

Suppose I was just expecting both 1911's to feel relatively the same despite the caliber difference. Guess perception is a funny thing. Thought they would feel about the same but found out I was wrong!

The 45acp I shot after one mag I was finished, didn't enjoy it. Though that 10mm I feel I could unload a box! Is that strange?

[TailGator]

Like you, I find it odd that someone would consider a "mild" .45 load to have less recoil than a "full" 10 mm load out of substantially similar pistols. You might give your friend a call and ask him if you remember right, and didn't get his descriptions of the loads crossed. You might even ask him what the loads were. Folks here with more reloading experience than me can give you their opinions of the loads. But in the end, you have to believe your own perception; it is all that really matters.

[kmw1954]

TailGator, actually you have it backwards. I thought the 1911 45acp had more recoil and muzzle lift than the 1911 10mm did, in comparison of these two guns. While having never fired a 10mm before this weekend I was under the impression that the 10mm was in general heavier, higher pressure, than the 45.

The loads we were shooting in the 45acp were 230gr plated RN with 5.0gr of HP-38. Which are lighter than my loading at 5.4gr HP-38 under a 200gr bullet.

Also thinking in my mind, I believe this 1911 10mm was milder and easier to control than some 40S&W poly guns I've shot.

[Areoflyer09]

As crazy as it sounds, I prefer a 10mm 1911 over a 45ACP for the recoil difference. The 10mm has more recoil but it’s a different recoil. Supposedly the 10mm should be snappier and less pleasant, but I enjoy it more.

Same is true with a 5” 45 1911 va my wife’s 5” 357Mag Coonan. I’ll take the 357s all day, I can tell there is more recoil with the Coonan, but it bothers my hands less.

I suspect it’s less about the guns and more about how you interpret the recoil with your hands. Some of us are just odd ducks and go against the crowd.

Edit: My best guess is that the faster rounds tend to spike higher in total recoil but also dissipate quickly. The slower rounds seem apply a lower pressure, longer to my hands. Total crap? Probably, but I’ve yet to find a better reasoning for why the rounds others find to be snappy bother me less.

[RickB]

I've shot two 1911s with the same maker's name on both, manufactured 25 years apart, same load, same day.
My gun, with which I was thoroughly familiar, shot nice and flat, not much muzzle flip.
The other one was very harsh in recoil, rotating in my grip to the extent that the cocking serrations were slashing my thumb with each shot. Very unpleasant.

Part of the problem is that "1911" doesn't mean a whole lot today, when guns are being made to a manufacturer's "improved" specs rather than the original specs.
Comparing one 1911 to another can be like comparing one car to another; wow, that 4x4 pick-up truck just doesn't ride like my Lexus!

Another issue might include the definition of "full-power 10mm"; most of the factory ammo from the big manufacturers is loaded down to little more than .40 S&W power levels; I'd have a hard time believing that you could coax as much felt recoil out one gun shooting 230 grain bullets at 700 fps as one shooting 200 grain bullets at 1200fps?

[PushPuller]

I hate to say it but it could always be a placebo effect. Iv actually had the same instance you had but between different 1911s of the same caliber. Me and the group I was with even set up a camera so see if we noticed any noticeable difference, an although not very scientific and leaving a lot of variables untouched we found that there was no visible difference between them. Unfortunately over the years iv become the "if I don't own it, I don't like how it shoots" kind of guy.


the 10mm could have felt better to you because you were expecting it to be more uncomfortable perhaps.

[GarandTd]

I believe preconceived notions of the recoil of these calibers could be what's skewing your perception. I don't have any experience with 45acp or 10mm. I constantly hear about how 45 acp is a soft slow push, so I would expect a softer recoil. 10 mm is often brought up for bear defense making me think heavy recoil. Keep in mind, there is no scientific basis for my expectations. I don't know the bullet weights or charges and, as said, I have no experience with either. This is just how my mind has categorized these.

[JJ45]

My Colt LW Commander seems to recoil less than my full size Springfield Mil Spec even though it is 3/4 of a pound lighter. Blast and flip seem about equal which I never felt objectionable. In this instance the slightly shorter Commander barrel may actually cause the perception of less flip when you would think the opposite.

The Commander has G10 grip panels, an undercut trigger guard, upswept beaver tail and dual recoil springs. All of these are supposed to aid control. Differing construction on 1911s certainly cause a different "feel"

But, we all have different anatomies and mental states so perceptions will always vary.

[kmw1954]

The key may well be the "preconceived perception" that is flawed! I will certainly sleep on this thought.
Again I did enjoy shooting that 10mm 1911 and it was more comfortable than most other 1911's I've shot. I think I will still pass on owning one and leave that to you folks that appreciate the 1911 platform. I'm sure I will shot more in the future as there are plenty out there.

[TailGator]

TailGator, actually you have it backwards.

Yep, I said it bass-ackwards. What I should have said was that I agree that it is odd to perceive a light .45 load as having heavier recoil than a full 10 mm load. One of those times that the message didn't get from brain to keyboard intact.

I'd be interested in knowing what the 10 mm load was. The idea of preconceived ideas contributing to your perception is interesting, and may well be playing a role.

[Nathan]

Where did you find a 4.5” barrel 1911?

[kmw1954]

Nathan, that was just an uneducated guess on my part as to barrel length. It was longer than 4" yet shorter than 5" as the guns are about the same length as my 4.5" Tanfoglio Witness.

The last 1911 45acp I shot was a Taurus model, the 10mm I will have to find out more info from my friend and yes I am now curious.

TailGator I will contact my friend and get back to you he just got back home to Florida last night and I will try to find out what the load and the gun are.

Yeup, in this case the preconception didn't match the reality!

[T. O'Heir]

"...just wasn't comfortable..." That's enough to not buy any firearm. Usually about the fit to your hand, but "I don't like it." is a reason just like "I want one."
"...much more pleasant..." Different grips? That alone will make a difference.

[Areoflyer09]

If you can recall, did the two 1911s have different checkering/stippling on the front strap and back strap? Like did one have on front and rear, by the other was only on the rear? Or did one have a sharper feel to the checkering/stippling?

A comment in another thread sparked a thought. I recently got to shoot a 9mm FNS. I hated the aggressive texturing the grip has. I shot 10 rounds from it and have it back to the owner. Neither of my 10mms or the Coonan punish my hands like the FNS did.

[kmw1954]

No I do not recall those details, what I do remember is the grip size and angle where and are hard to get into a comfortable position and because if this I believe it effects the way I perceive the recoil of the gun. I remember with most 1911 after each shot I have to readjust my grip.

To continue on that thought though I also find very small pistols uncomfortable and hard to grip. I do not like gripping a pistol with only 2 fingers. I just fired my brothers PT111 G2 this weekend and found it a pain to shoot. One mag and I had enough.

[RickB]

Are you of Austrian heritage?
Glock apparently developed the ergos of his pistol by measuring the hands of 100 people, and I've always thought the Glock is odd because Austrians have strange hands.

[kmw1954]

Actually NO I am not.

[kmw1954]

A few had asked what gun the 10mm was, well I just received an email from my friend in Fla. and the Gun is a Ruger SR1911 and the ammo shot was factory S&B 180gr advertised as 1165fps.

Anyways as far as I can recall that gun was one of the more pleasant 1911's that I've shot.