home defense

cobain 187 · April 27, 2002, 10:13 AM

Hello all. Cobain 187 here. I was hoping i could get some advice on home defense ammo. I own a mossberg 500 riot gun, and ive been having trouble deciding on what type of buckshot to use. Any advice is welcome, thanks.

dfaugh · April 27, 2002, 10:29 AM

Well, I'm in the minority here, possibly...But I'm a firm believer in "more power"...Have a few boxes of Sellier & Beloit 3" Magnum 00 buck, 15 pellets per load...Kinda punishing to shoot, but unscientific testing shows it'll stop a fight RIGHT NOW! In fact, outa my 20" Mossberg "Special Purpose" the muzzle blast is probably lethal, out to a few feet! Some say not good for short range, as pellets clumped together, but outa my gun, at 30-40 feet, I get pretty decent spread (maybe 12-18")...availble@ cheaperthandirt.com, cheap too....

Dave McC · April 27, 2002, 10:52 AM

There's a few tons of input in the Archives, Cobain. If research still leaves you befuddled, sing out...

KSFreeman · April 27, 2002, 11:38 AM

Just please remember Rule #4. Not everyone lives in a concrete box, a castle in the desert or a cardboard shack in the woods.

m14nut · April 27, 2002, 01:21 PM

Federal Personal Defence 12 & 20 ga. shotshells....

m14nut · April 27, 2002, 01:21 PM

Federal Personal Defense 12 & 20 ga. shotshells....

Ewok_Guy · April 27, 2002, 01:22 PM

Federal's Hi-Power No. 4 loads are a good choice for home defense. Plenty of power at close range, but dont have to worry about over penetration.. Also recoils less than your average 00 load.

Badger Arms · April 27, 2002, 01:59 PM

Here's what I use. I've thought about it lots. I use the 2 3/4" Magnum 00 buck 12 pellet load. Normal 2 3/4" 00 Buck is a 9 pellet load. The 12 pellet is still a 2 3/4" load but sends 3 more pellets out at a higher velocity than the 15 pellet load.

The individual pellets hit with more power and you can carry more in your magazine. In my gun, I can put one more shell in. The results are 3 less pellets but they travel at higher velocity. Also, you get a little less recoil and one more shot.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/pre_bucksh.htm

HKguy9 · April 27, 2002, 11:10 PM

What has six legs and two heads?

LBC · April 28, 2002, 08:10 PM

I recently patterned several different loads in my Mossberg Model 500 shotgun, 18.5" barrel, at 30 feet. The best of the bunch was No. 4 buckshot. 00 Buck was a pain with the old standard, hard buttplate. The Federal personal defense load wasn't bad, but it wasn't as consistent as the No. 4 Buck. No. 6 birdshot was about the same pattern as the Federal.

Double Naught Spy · April 28, 2002, 09:40 PM

#4 buckshot is fine. You might even want something smaller if you have a very confined area. Out to a few feet, it won't matter what size shot you have, or slugs, as the shot will not have separated from the shot cup (or not significantly).

I like Federals 00 buck 'tactical' load. Yes, "tactical is in the name. It is a slightly powered down load so your shot is traveling a little slower (somewhere around 1200 fps as I recall). The benefit of the reduced power is less recoil and so you get faster follow-up shots and a little less worry about over penetration issues. If you choose a semi-auto shotgun, you may wish to run through a bunch of the stuff to make sure it will function properly. It should, but I would still check.

Out of my 18" Rem 870 Marine Magnum, the Federl Tactical 00 buck has a spread of about 1 inch for every five feet. I patterned it as 5, 10, and 15 yards with that average result. Each gun patterns differently and will do so differently with different loads. It is nice to know what to expect out of whatever load you choose to use with your gun. I found IDPA cardboard targets worked great for patterning tests.

C.R.Sam · April 28, 2002, 10:26 PM

Just remember. Regardless of ammo; bird, buck or slug; at normal inside the house ranges you essentially have a .73 caliber rifle. A stopping shot must be properly aimed.

Practice accordingly.

Sam

Dave McC · April 29, 2002, 04:31 AM

The Fed database that I cannot access since retirement had ALL shotgun ammo listed at 99% effecive at one shot stops. All loads, all gauges plus the 410. The enormous amount of energy a shotgun round can dump into a target is one of the main advantages to using a shotgun for HD.

BTW, forensic pics of close range shotgun wounds make even the least queasy lose sleep. We used to pass them around in class during the safety segment of training.Shock motivation...

This doesn't mean one can stuff Ol' Betsy with any round. It means that one can tailor the ammo to a particular domicile and neighborhood.

Try out some loads at the measured max distance you can shoot in your home and add a yard for GPs.
Use the load that fits your needs and patterns tightest in your shotgun.

And,contrary to common myth, spread is the problem. We want all pellets in a fist sized or smaller pattern. That's what makes a shotgun so incredibly effective.

rusher · April 29, 2002, 06:28 AM

I like Federals 00 buck 'tactical' load. A little softer on the shoulder. Now if your trying to stay safe from the BG family sueing or LEO looking for a murder rap you may want to think about the bean bag rounds w/lead shot. It really just depends on your tactical and mental needs........not sure if this helps or just confused you more.

some of the other members might not agree with this point of view but in these anti-gun mentality times getting sued in a cival wrongful death case is a possilbility.

Rusher

Coronach · April 29, 2002, 09:40 AM

You gotta live long enough to be sued.

I firmly believe in not ignoring the possibility of a civil trial...but you gotta take care of first things first. Shoot to stop, and the most effective stop is the one that sends the most entrails blossoming out of the target's hide.

Beanbaggers in LEO scenarios are covered by cops with real guns, in case the beanbag round fails to work as advertised. Who is covering you?

Mike

dfaugh · April 29, 2002, 09:53 AM

Agree TOTALLY w/ Coronach...If I'm in a situation where I have absolutely no choice but to use a gun, it means I NEED deadly force, so I want that BG out of commission RIGHT f***ing NOW! Let 'em sue me, I gotta good lawyer...but I survived (or more importantly my family/loved ones did)...Thought about "less lethal" alternatives, realized that's absurd on the face of it...

Remind me of a place I used to work, years ago(24 hour towing)....Cleaning up, found Win levergun in the office...asked what it was for...They said incase anyone 'caused trouble, tried to "steal" back their car, etc. I asked where the shells were...Didn't have any...Yeah, right...I'm gonna wave an UNLOADED gun at a BG....NOW he decides to shoot at me!, and I got nothin'! No thank you...

Its truly sad that we even have to discuss the fact that we might be arrested/sued under these circumstances.... But at least (for now) we still even have the OPTION of defending ourselves...Not so in many other countries

April 27, 2002, 10:13 AM	#1
cobain 187 Junior Member Join Date: April 27, 2002 Posts: 2	home defense Hello all. Cobain 187 here. I was hoping i could get some advice on home defense ammo. I own a mossberg 500 riot gun, and ive been having trouble deciding on what type of buckshot to use. Any advice is welcome, thanks.

April 27, 2002, 10:29 AM	#2
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	Well, I'm in the minority here, possibly...But I'm a firm believer in "more power"...Have a few boxes of Sellier & Beloit 3" Magnum 00 buck, 15 pellets per load...Kinda punishing to shoot, but unscientific testing shows it'll stop a fight RIGHT NOW! In fact, outa my 20" Mossberg "Special Purpose" the muzzle blast is probably lethal, out to a few feet! Some say not good for short range, as pellets clumped together, but outa my gun, at 30-40 feet, I get pretty decent spread (maybe 12-18")...availble@ cheaperthandirt.com, cheap too.... __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

April 27, 2002, 01:22 PM	#7
Ewok_Guy Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Endor Posts: 1,664	Federal's Hi-Power No. 4 loads are a good choice for home defense. Plenty of power at close range, but dont have to worry about over penetration.. Also recoils less than your average 00 load. __________________ "Death and honor are thought to be the same, but today I have learned that sometimes they are not." --------------------- " I like big fat men like you. When they fall they make more noise! ...and sometimes they never get up." -Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

April 27, 2002, 01:59 PM	#8
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	Here's what I use. I've thought about it lots. I use the 2 3/4" Magnum 00 buck 12 pellet load. Normal 2 3/4" 00 Buck is a 9 pellet load. The 12 pellet is still a 2 3/4" load but sends 3 more pellets out at a higher velocity than the 15 pellet load. The individual pellets hit with more power and you can carry more in your magazine. In my gun, I can put one more shell in. The results are 3 less pellets but they travel at higher velocity. Also, you get a little less recoil and one more shot. http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/pre_bucksh.htm __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

April 27, 2002, 11:10 PM	#9
HKguy9 Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2001 Posts: 2,132	What has six legs and two heads? __________________ P7M8, VP9

April 27, 2002, 10:52 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	There's a few tons of input in the Archives, Cobain. If research still leaves you befuddled, sing out...

April 27, 2002, 11:38 AM	#4
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Just please remember Rule #4. Not everyone lives in a concrete box, a castle in the desert or a cardboard shack in the woods. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

April 27, 2002, 01:21 PM	#5
m14nut Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2002 Location: United States Posts: 375	Federal Personal Defence 12 & 20 ga. shotshells....

April 28, 2002, 08:10 PM	#10
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	I recently patterned several different loads in my Mossberg Model 500 shotgun, 18.5" barrel, at 30 feet. The best of the bunch was No. 4 buckshot. 00 Buck was a pain with the old standard, hard buttplate. The Federal personal defense load wasn't bad, but it wasn't as consistent as the No. 4 Buck. No. 6 birdshot was about the same pattern as the Federal.

April 28, 2002, 09:40 PM	#11
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	#4 buckshot is fine. You might even want something smaller if you have a very confined area. Out to a few feet, it won't matter what size shot you have, or slugs, as the shot will not have separated from the shot cup (or not significantly). I like Federals 00 buck 'tactical' load. Yes, "tactical is in the name. It is a slightly powered down load so your shot is traveling a little slower (somewhere around 1200 fps as I recall). The benefit of the reduced power is less recoil and so you get faster follow-up shots and a little less worry about over penetration issues. If you choose a semi-auto shotgun, you may wish to run through a bunch of the stuff to make sure it will function properly. It should, but I would still check. Out of my 18" Rem 870 Marine Magnum, the Federl Tactical 00 buck has a spread of about 1 inch for every five feet. I patterned it as 5, 10, and 15 yards with that average result. Each gun patterns differently and will do so differently with different loads. It is nice to know what to expect out of whatever load you choose to use with your gun. I found IDPA cardboard targets worked great for patterning tests. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 28, 2002, 10:26 PM	#12
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Just remember. Regardless of ammo; bird, buck or slug; at normal inside the house ranges you essentially have a .73 caliber rifle. A stopping shot must be properly aimed. Practice accordingly. Sam

April 29, 2002, 04:31 AM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	The Fed database that I cannot access since retirement had ALL shotgun ammo listed at 99% effecive at one shot stops. All loads, all gauges plus the 410. The enormous amount of energy a shotgun round can dump into a target is one of the main advantages to using a shotgun for HD. BTW, forensic pics of close range shotgun wounds make even the least queasy lose sleep. We used to pass them around in class during the safety segment of training.Shock motivation... This doesn't mean one can stuff Ol' Betsy with any round. It means that one can tailor the ammo to a particular domicile and neighborhood. Try out some loads at the measured max distance you can shoot in your home and add a yard for GPs. Use the load that fits your needs and patterns tightest in your shotgun. And,contrary to common myth, spread is the problem. We want all pellets in a fist sized or smaller pattern. That's what makes a shotgun so incredibly effective.

April 29, 2002, 06:28 AM	#14
rusher Member Join Date: August 24, 2000 Location: Gastonia,NC Posts: 29	I like Federals 00 buck 'tactical' load. A little softer on the shoulder. Now if your trying to stay safe from the BG family sueing or LEO looking for a murder rap you may want to think about the bean bag rounds w/lead shot. It really just depends on your tactical and mental needs........not sure if this helps or just confused you more. some of the other members might not agree with this point of view but in these anti-gun mentality times getting sued in a cival wrongful death case is a possilbility. Rusher

April 29, 2002, 09:40 AM	#15
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	You gotta live long enough to be sued. I firmly believe in not ignoring the possibility of a civil trial...but you gotta take care of first things first. Shoot to stop, and the most effective stop is the one that sends the most entrails blossoming out of the target's hide. Beanbaggers in LEO scenarios are covered by cops with real guns, in case the beanbag round fails to work as advertised. Who is covering you? Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

April 29, 2002, 09:53 AM	#16
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	Agree TOTALLY w/ Coronach...If I'm in a situation where I have absolutely no choice but to use a gun, it means I NEED deadly force, so I want that BG out of commission RIGHT f***ing NOW! Let 'em sue me, I gotta good lawyer...but I survived (or more importantly my family/loved ones did)...Thought about "less lethal" alternatives, realized that's absurd on the face of it... Remind me of a place I used to work, years ago(24 hour towing)....Cleaning up, found Win levergun in the office...asked what it was for...They said incase anyone 'caused trouble, tried to "steal" back their car, etc. I asked where the shells were...Didn't have any...Yeah, right...I'm gonna wave an UNLOADED gun at a BG....NOW he decides to shoot at me!, and I got nothin'! No thank you... Its truly sad that we even have to discuss the fact that we might be arrested/sued under these circumstances.... But at least (for now) we still even have the OPTION of defending ourselves...Not so in many other countries __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."