Hoping for EZ annealing - Page 2

NC FNS · August 29, 2019, 07:59 AM

Yes, UncleNick, it’s an AR platform.
After I anneal my cases, I think I'll relax, review quantum theory and the theory of relativity, and come up with the elusive Grand Unification Theory. Heh, heh.

Thanks everyone for your input.

hounddawg · August 29, 2019, 08:44 AM

Quote:

considerable amount of science that Uniclenick has presented as well as Jeehpammer (not to mention case mfgs annealing the case neck and shoulder) to go with that

so post a link to some of that considerable science that documents any significant changes at 750F for a few seconds. Nick seems to be dodging the question and has posted no links in this or the previous thread on the subject and Jeephammers studies were done with a $50 Ebay microscope and some Templaq in his barn/shed

Annealing in a few seconds is possible. AMPs do it, but I figure the temps need to be well above 1000F and the time, temperature and position of the heat on the case needs to be precisely controlled to do so. By all other studies I can find on the subject nothing is accomplished below 1000F even when the cases are left at that temp for 5 minutes or more. Even more curious is that AMP who has spent a lot of money on numerous studies which were performed by METLAB has never sponsored or at least never published any studies showing velocity consistency improves or case life is extended even with perfectly annealed case. That right there makes my spidy sense tingle

**Unclenick** · August 30, 2019, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hounddawg

I have no idea where figure 10 is

It's the third (right-most) of three small graphs positioned between the figure 3 set and the figure 4 set of metallographs, about 2/3 of the way down scrolling through the article.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hounddawg

Nick seems to be dodging the question

I have no idea what you think I am "dodging"?

hounddawg · August 30, 2019, 09:52 PM

Ok I see the graph Nick but once again the time span is 30 minutes

On the dodging the question I keep putting out this question.

Does anyone have links to any scientifically conducted studies not behind a paywall that shows any significant changes in the neck/shoulder area by heating it to 750F for less than ten seconds.

So far crickets

my other question which I have been pursuing for years is

Has anyone conducted a verified study which shows that annealing does anything to do with improving accuracy or case life.

once again crickets. I have posted that last challenge on boards which I know the AMP guys monitor.... Seems they can test everything else under the sun but nothing that shows a real world reason to buy their machine....curious isn't it that in all the years of gun blogs and youtube videos no one has ever used a test barrel in a machine rest to get the answer?

Seriously all it would take is one verifiable study that proves statistically under controlled scientific conditions you got a 5 FPS lower standard deviation using cases annealed on a AMP vs non annealed and I would have one on the UPS truck the next work day. I don't think I have to worry about that though because I get consistent velocities out of my non annealed cases with ES below 20 and SD's below 10 on a normal basis. Expensive rabbits feet if you ask me. Save some money and buy a "lucky" hat

Just a guess on my part but I would bet a small chunk of change that neck needs to reach over 1000F to have any significant changes in just a few seconds. When I was doing the dark room method I was easily hitting 1000 - 1200 on the neck section judging by the glow chart. Those cases survived double digit loadings on them with no accuracy issues and no neck splits. If I ever put a .308 barrel on any of my rifles again I would not hesitate to use them in matches

hooligan1 · August 31, 2019, 04:58 AM

Houndawg can you do the test and give us some data on the results.

hounddawg · August 31, 2019, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Houndawg can you do the test and give us some data on the results.

been real world testing it for 9 or 10 years now. I don't feel like throwing away $1500 on a AMP but if you want to buy me one, I will be happy to donate the time to test it

did the red glow routine for 5 or 6 years, followed by 2 years on the Annealeez, followed by a year and a half of no annealing at all. Never split a case neck, always get great velocity standard deviations. My real world tests may not produce pretty pics but my chrono results and targets tell me it is not worth the hassle

Seems to me though if I was manufacturing a machine and trying convince the public it is worth buying I would want some sort of lab test test data that would show the benefits of buying it as far as potential accuracy improvements or cost savings in regard to case life. I am convinced that the AMP will actually anneal the brass just that I see no benefit as far as case life or accuracy compared to non annealed cases

When I am getting consistent ES's below 20, SD's below 10 and double digit reloadings from cases with no annealing then what exactly would a perfect anneal improve for me? I don't have enough money to waste on things I don't need.

I did just a new rear bag though, it was pricey but way below the price of any annealing machine. I am betting about $200 bucks in the hope it will improve my composite scores by at least 1 or 2 percent and solve my tracking issues. I don't mind spending money, I just like to make sure it is spent wisely

lordmorgul · August 31, 2019, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hounddawg

been real world testing it for 9 or 10 years now.

But everyone else needs a degree and a lab, nice. I think we can all agree then no one actually knows what is and isn’t effective, you included. So do whatever floats your boat.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

hounddawg · August 31, 2019, 02:34 PM

why scientific studies, becasue I have provided many links of scientific studies as to why it does not do anything. If you want to argue otherwise evidence should be of comparable nature, not hear say

When I am getting consistent ES's below 20, SD's below 10 and double digit reloadings from cases with no annealing then what exactly would a perfect anneal improve for me?

no degree required to answer this question, btw this is hearsay but I believe my experiences. I am not doing anything special to my cases , no magic pixie dust or anything. Just common sense reloading that everyone does

F. Guffey · September 1, 2019, 10:20 AM

Years ago I suggested reloaders make a list of rules that apply to annealing; TRY! to understand, I am not talking about my rules, I am talking about rules that apply to annealing. It was about that time the 'potty' mouths took over.

So what did I do? I made up a few rules that applied to annealing; the rules were not my rules but rules I thought should apply. After that I made a few tools for annealing, the tools are not recognizable as annealing tools "but" THE TOOLS conform to the rules of annealing.

I have also applied the rules when critiquing methods and or techniques to annealing, it beats the heck out of saying "I do not know" when asked "Why do you do it that way", or "cause".

F. Guffey

August 30, 2019, 09:52 PM	#29
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Ok I see the graph Nick but once again the time span is 30 minutes On the dodging the question I keep putting out this question. Does anyone have links to any scientifically conducted studies not behind a paywall that shows any significant changes in the neck/shoulder area by heating it to 750F for less than ten seconds. So far crickets my other question which I have been pursuing for years is Has anyone conducted a verified study which shows that annealing does anything to do with improving accuracy or case life. once again crickets. I have posted that last challenge on boards which I know the AMP guys monitor.... Seems they can test everything else under the sun but nothing that shows a real world reason to buy their machine....curious isn't it that in all the years of gun blogs and youtube videos no one has ever used a test barrel in a machine rest to get the answer? Seriously all it would take is one verifiable study that proves statistically under controlled scientific conditions you got a 5 FPS lower standard deviation using cases annealed on a AMP vs non annealed and I would have one on the UPS truck the next work day. I don't think I have to worry about that though because I get consistent velocities out of my non annealed cases with ES below 20 and SD's below 10 on a normal basis. Expensive rabbits feet if you ask me. Save some money and buy a "lucky" hat Just a guess on my part but I would bet a small chunk of change that neck needs to reach over 1000F to have any significant changes in just a few seconds. When I was doing the dark room method I was easily hitting 1000 - 1200 on the neck section judging by the glow chart. Those cases survived double digit loadings on them with no accuracy issues and no neck splits. If I ever put a .308 barrel on any of my rifles again I would not hesitate to use them in matches __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; August 30, 2019 at 10:07 PM.

August 31, 2019, 04:58 AM	#30
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Houndawg can you do the test and give us some data on the results. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

August 31, 2019, 02:34 PM	#33
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	why scientific studies, becasue I have provided many links of scientific studies as to why it does not do anything. If you want to argue otherwise evidence should be of comparable nature, not hear say When I am getting consistent ES's below 20, SD's below 10 and double digit reloadings from cases with no annealing then what exactly would a perfect anneal improve for me? no degree required to answer this question, btw this is hearsay but I believe my experiences. I am not doing anything special to my cases , no magic pixie dust or anything. Just common sense reloading that everyone does __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; August 31, 2019 at 03:59 PM.

August 29, 2019, 07:59 AM	#26
NC FNS Member Join Date: April 23, 2017 Posts: 28	Yes, UncleNick, it’s an AR platform. After I anneal my cases, I think I'll relax, review quantum theory and the theory of relativity, and come up with the elusive Grand Unification Theory. Heh, heh. Thanks everyone for your input.

September 1, 2019, 10:20 AM	#34
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Years ago I suggested reloaders make a list of rules that apply to annealing; TRY! to understand, I am not talking about my rules, I am talking about rules that apply to annealing. It was about that time the 'potty' mouths took over. So what did I do? I made up a few rules that applied to annealing; the rules were not my rules but rules I thought should apply. After that I made a few tools for annealing, the tools are not recognizable as annealing tools "but" THE TOOLS conform to the rules of annealing. I have also applied the rules when critiquing methods and or techniques to annealing, it beats the heck out of saying "I do not know" when asked "Why do you do it that way", or "cause". F. Guffey