Mountain Lion Questions

[huntinaz]

Yeah but deer are easier to kill than hogs, so the lions won't start eating the hogs until the deer are gone...

[A_Gamehog]

Heading for Troopers house?

[dogrunner]

Well, at least the first five critters are edible!

Where's your roadsign pointin' to Florida, we got more of the latter than any of the former!!

[A_Gamehog]

Previous post I made with the lions in the dark was not correct. The State was Washington, not Ca.. My email that I got was wrong.

Article in Seattle times...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ougars18m.html

[BGutzman]

Roughly 8 years ago a friend and I were riding our motorcycles down a lonesome strech of country road in eastern Kansas. We were pushing the low triple digits in a private race when all of a sudden we saw a cougar not 10 feet from the road were were on. (The road was surrounded by open farm land.)

We were so dumbfound that we both stopped about 50 yards past it and it ended our race as it ran away. It was a impressively powerful looking animal and seemingly far from where you would think it would live and still it was there.

You just dont know where they can show up.

[Art Eatman]

"Even if it's raiding your cows for food, there are ways to stop it without killing it."

Okay, tell us how.

And if you get west of a line from, say, Del Rio north toward Big Spring, I challenge the heck out of your assertion about "plenty of deer". Deer, yes. Plenty, no.

[hunter52]

I would bet good U.S. dollars that two legged critters kill more deer in ANY state than the four legged ones.

[sway]

I'm willing to take that bet!!! We hunt a private ranch where the land owner went from selling mule deer hunts to paying hunters to bring there dogs and kill any mountain lion on sight! Here in NM they seem to target bucks, as there usually alone. He has counted up to 35 bucks all killed by mountain lions, that was just this year. Most people won't harvest that number of deer in a decade.

[Nnobby45]

I would bet good U.S. dollars that two legged critters kill more deer in ANY state than the four legged ones.

Well, let's see. Deer hunting is open for a matter of weeks-- considering rifle, muzzle loader and bow.

A Mountain Lion needs about a deer a week and deer are their main food supply.

The state of Nevada has a lion population numbering in the thousands. I believe lions probably kill more deer than the total number of tags issued---never mind filled. Of course, the tags issued take into account predators, poaching, and the average % of tags filled by lawful hunters.

Coyotes are also heavy preadators on fawns in some areas, and there are other predators as well--like Bobcats. I think the 4 legged critters win the contest by a mile. Hate to see you lose your good US dollars.

I think you'd lose the bet in my State.

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, most of the year, mule deer bucks are solitary. Does and yearlings tend to be in groups of maybe a half-dozen, so more lookouts for danger. Bucks are thus easier for a lion to sneak up on.

Saw an oddity, many years ago. A guy came out from San Antonio to hunt mulies. Within no more than a couple of hours he'd shot a 5x4; not a bragging buck, but a nice buck. As he walked up to field-dress it, he saw a couple of large bald spots just in front of the hips.

Closer, and he could see claw marks in the bald spots. (Mule deer hair comes off quite easily.) For all that he'd shot the deer, it was a case of the deer's already being "dead, but didn't know it". The bone of the lower gum was broken from hitting the ground when the lion leapt upon him. The buck could drink, but couldn't eat. The lion had landed too far back to get a neck hold.

[hunter52]

I am not just talking about hunting ,loss of habitat from farming,housing, expansion and industrialization,vehicle collisions,fences,manmade obstacles(as in dams) that prevent normal migration,.....the list is long, all kill deer,elk and a host of other wildlife.I won't include animals killed by diseases like CWD.

One estimate from the 1990's put deer ,vehicle collisions nationwide at over 700,000.

The state of Nevada must have one hell of a herd of deer if it has thousands of mountain lions,if one eats a deer per week that is 52 a year,so 1,000 mountain lion need 52,000 deer to survive 3,000 lion need 156,000 and so on.Add to that the other causes of death.
Our state also has lion in the thousands and plenty of deer.
Here in Colorado our average deer population is around 700,000 by DOW estimates,the population has been in decline for decades,recent studies do not show any direct link between the decline and predation,with coyotes being the predator with the most impact on deer herds.

The before mentioned man related issues have the greatest impact.While our deer population declines,our elk population is exploding,another reason for the deer decline could be competition for grazing,from elk. As well as cattle and sheep,more man related losses.

Colorado quotas for mountain lion are usually around 700 per year,but it is seldom reached most years 300-500 cats are taken.

Stop and look at the big picture ,man is the one doing the most harm.

[hunter52]

I have seen several good hunting leases ruined ,not by predators but by over hunting.
Lions are not trophy hunters,they could care less if a deer is a buck or a doe,they go after the easiest prey,usually fawns or injured,old animals.

FWIW I live in the south west part of Colorado,in the San Juan Mountain,Uncompahgre Plateau area,one of the best hunting spots in the state,for just about any species cept antelope, I have had lion tracks in my driveway and my neighbor had one of his dogs snatched off the porch by one.
I have hunted cats ,although I have never killed one,I used to just go for the chase. The last lion hunt I was on was when my sister shot hers ,in 2000,shot it out of a tree with a 22 Ruger MKll.

[Buzzcook]

http://new.bangordailynews.com/2011/...gs/?ref=latest

Feds declare Eastern cougar officially extinct, despite continued reports of sightings

But after reviewing more than 570 comments from the public on possible sightings, federal biologists determined that any cougars spotted north of Florida were likely captive cats that were released or escaped, western cats migrating eastward or — in most cases — were not mountain lions at all.

“We recognize that many people have seen cougars in the wild within the historical range of the eastern cougar,” Martin Miller, the service’s northeast region chief on endangered species, said in a statement on Wednesday. “However, we believe those cougars are not the eastern cougar subspecies. We found no information to support the existence of the eastern cougar.”

Also known as pumas, panthers or catamounts, cougars are the most widely distributed land mammal in the world besides humans. Adult cats typically range from 75 to 150 pounds — much larger than Maine’s other wildcats, the bobcat or Canada lynx — and are distinguishable by their tawny color and long, thick tail.

The eastern subspecies was once abundant but was driven to extinction by humans in much of its former range by the late-1800s or early-1900s. The last confirmed eastern mountain lion was killed by a trapper in Somerset County, Maine, in 1938.

The cat was added to the federal endangered species list in 1973, based on beliefs that small populations of the lions may survive in the southern Smoky Mountains. But despite frequent sightings and a small number of documented cougars — including at least two in Maine — biologists say wild breeding populations of mountain lions have not been found since.

Pity if true. But nature abhors a vacuum so odds are Western and Florida cougars will take up the slack if the food is there.

[spclPatrolGroup]

I have a cousin who got a cougar a few seasons ago, they make nice rugs, but the meat isnt very good, eventually I think he fed most of it to his dog. :barf:

[sway]

That land owner has been running his outfit for over 35 years, taking 180+ class bucks year in and out. So that tells me its NOT due to over hunting. He has NEVER seen signs of mountain lion on his property, up until two years ago he saw the first track. If you let them set up shop in your area YOUR DEER POPULATION will decrease. And I never stated that they where trophy hunters, but they do target bucks as stated earlier....

Yeah, most of the year, mule deer bucks are solitary. Does and yearlings tend to be in groups of maybe a half-dozen, so more lookouts for danger. Bucks are thus easier for a lion to sneak up on.

I find Art Eatman statement true. As i have witnessed it first hand!

So your argument is that it is impossible for predators to kill off a healthy population of deer?

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, Buzzcook. I needed a laugh.

A repeat: Somebody asked my wife how she knew that the cat she saw not far from Thomasville, GA, was a mountain lion and not some other critter. She answered that it looked just like the lion skin draped over our couch.

[hunter52]

Yes I do believe it is impossible for a predator to kill off a healthy deer herd.
Nature has a way of balancing things out,if the deer population becomes large ,the predator population also becomes larger,population of deer shrinks,predator population also shrinks.Been that way for what,probably 10's of thousands of years?
Man is the only animal on the planet that kills for sport, some species kill other species randomly, but it is usually to eliminate competition.
Man is the only animal that I can think of that has caused other animal species to go extinct,or near extinct.

The mountain lion,and all other predators for that matter, are not trying to wipe out the deer population,they are merely trying to survive.

Colorado has more than one record mulie in the books,but none recent.
One reason is the unlimited over the counter license sales they used to have. Huge numbers of large mature bucks were killed before the rut ,leaving smaller bucks to breed,resulting in a less favorable gene pool for trophy animals.
The last 12 or so years all deer tags have been draw only with point restrictions,and there are getting to be some pretty decent bucks again.At the same time,they have not increased lion tags,in fact in some GMU's they have reduced the quotas.

Bottom line,man is selfish,he wants all game for himself,even though he does not require it for survival and is very capable of wiping out any competition.No matter the consequence.

[Rifleman1776]

There has been a lot of press about mounain lions recently. Anti-hunters want them so they will decimate the deer population and put an end to hunting.
In some states, like mine, Arkansas, offcially there are no mountain lions. But people see them, they are here. Most are former 'pets' turned loose. Drug dealers and meth cookers keep them on chains to keep strangers away and alarm when police come. When the druggies move on they just release the lions into the wild where they thrive.

[A_Gamehog]

This Lion has killed more animals than most hunters will in a lifetime.

WITHOUT TAGS!

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes I do believe it is impossible for a predator to kill off a healthy deer herd.
Nature has a way of balancing things out,if the deer population becomes large ,the predator population also becomes larger,population of deer shrinks,predator population also shrinks.Been that way for what,probably 10's of thousands of years?
Man is the only animal on the planet that kills for sport, some species kill other species randomly, but it is usually to eliminate competition.
Man is the only animal that I can think of that has caused other animal species to go extinct,or near extinct.

The "balance" of nature about which you speak is somewhat fictional. Nature's balance is really continued imbalance. Contrary to our perceptions, stagnate populations are detrimental because they don't adjust to the environment which is never the same from year to year Everything stays in flux. Those living in the SW may still be familiar with the population explosions of jackrabbits every few years which are followed by coyote population explosions soon thereafter. These are what many of the ranchers notice...first the jacks that compete with their cattle and then the coyotes that kill their calves. This noted pattern is probably because of a lack of predators and other food as influenced by humans, but in the boreal north, the snowshoe hare's population cycle occurs and has been tied to the lynx, though the tie is apparently observational bias of sorts. http://www.pnas.org/content/94/10/5147.full

While you may think it is impossible for a predator to kill off a healthy deer herd, you aren't looking at the bigger picture. It just isn't the deer herd that feeds a given predator. The predator (and there is almost never just one type) may decimate a local population down below healthy numbers. The population may rebound, but not necessarily via the local "herd," but from encroachment from other herds.

If you actually mean a specific group of deer as a "herd" then yes, a predator can kill off a healthy herd of deer, but deer herds are quite flexible and disperse and combine with other individuals such that a herd may not remain homogenous for any extended period of time.

Humans are the only animals that kill for sport? Well, they are the only ones that call is "sport" when they kill for reasons other than food or other needs. James Froude proclaimed that wild animals never kill for sport back in the 1800s. He was a historian and novelist, but not a biologist. Motivation is not always clear cut. Certainly there are animals that kill for reason other than food, protection, sexual dominance, or territorial dominance. Dolphins will kill porpoises and not eat them and porpoises generally don't necessarily pose a risk for dolphins. The killing isn't well understood, but has been observed repeatedly. Some have claimed it is for sport. It does not appear to be for protection or territory.

Various species of cat are known to play with smaller game before killing it. http://www.africanwildlifeguide.com/...g-for-survival So it could be argued that the "playing with" of the game is for sport. Weasels do as well. Foxes, possibly so. http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answ...ic.php?id=4741

[A_Gamehog]

This mountain lion was hit by a car in Boring, OR

Just the sheer size and power of this animal is unique.

[BILLDAVE]

Great thread. Amazing pics in several posts. Espescially in the last one! Wow.
BILLDAVE

[A_Gamehog]

This happened in Eureka , Montana .

The car was attacked by a mountain lion during the night.

They think their housecat was hiding underneath the car or in the motor.

Trying to hide from the Mountain Lion.

Some incredible pictures. Look at the muddy tracks on the car windshield.

[BrianBM]

That Oregon lion hit by a car - that's a darn big cat.
That's got to be about as large as they come.

[Big Bill]

If you try calling that lion in, you'll probably be it's lunch. I've lion hunted here in Idaho with hounds. I don't know of and haven't even heard of anyone around here shooting one over bait or by calling. If you decide to do it though, please make sure your life insurance is paid up current.